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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 09:59 Thread Starter
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A question for Law people here....

I was discussing this matter with one of my mates yesterday, we were playing "Serious Sam" at the same time too However, he was talking about a public order rule which is "One can not get trailed for the same offense twice" and I totally agree with him and with the rule. A question simply jumped to my head and I asked: What If a person did 20 years in prison for murder and after he did his time, the other dude who was supposed to be the murdered one showed up and turned out that he is alive and kicking and the one who did 20 years for killing him, saw him and killed him on the spot! Dose the murderer go on a trail again for killing the same person twice? If he gets a trail, then that is a clear infringement of the public order rule "One can not get trailed for the same offense twice" and if he did not get on trail then a wasted life is literally been wasted!

We had an elongated argument that to my grasp the conclusion is: Logically, he should go on trail for killing a human being, lawfully, he should not go on trail and get punished for the same crime twice!

What do you think?

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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 10:37
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Well, i didn't understand correctly what you said but, the person goes in to prison for killing a human, it dosn't matter if he killed the right one or the wrong one.
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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 10:48
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You need to make a distinction between the act of murder in the legal sense, and the actual murder itself.

In this case there are two convictions for the act of murder, while only one actual murder has taken place.

The first conviction was obviously wrong, as there hadn't actually been a murder. So that conviction should be overturned, and person that was found guilty should receive some form of compensation.

Which then paves the way for the second conviction, the proper one, as now there has actually been a murder.

So, while there are two convictions for the act of murder, one of them is overturned, so in the end he's only convicted for one actual murder.

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Last edited by Boyo; January 19th, 2006 at 11:46.
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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 12:38
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but wouldnt the 20 years in prison in advance count for something? Life is unfair...
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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 13:10
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There are various approaches to this.

His lawyer could argue that the 20 years that he was wrongfully imprisoned actually contributed to him commiting the murder when he eventually came out.

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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 13:15 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyo
You need to make a distinction between the act of murder in the legal sense, and the actual murder itself.

In this case there are two convictions for the act of murder, while only one actual murder has taken place.

The first conviction was obviously wrong, as there hadn't actually been a murder. So that conviction should be overturned, and person that was found guilty should receive some form of compensation.

Which then paves the way for the second conviction, the proper one, as now there has actually been a murder.

So, while there are two convictions for the act of murder, one of them is overturned, so in the end he's only convicted for one actual murder.
The guy was "convicted" because he killed somebody. That is a murder he was "convicted" for! So he already punished for the crime that he will do after he dose 20 years in jail! There are countries that do not have the compensation system for whatever time you do in jail even if you were found innocent eventually.

The act of murder and the actual murder dose not really apply here because he already in the eyes of the law, state and society "did" commite the crime and got "convicted" for it! There is nothing in law that could cancel the first conviction especially that he "did" it!

I disagree with the explaination here Boyo.

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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 13:17 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lite®nit
but wouldnt the 20 years in prison in advance count for something? Life is unfair...

Aresto's definition for law is: REASON FREE OF PASSION. So....

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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 13:20 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deo
Well, i didn't understand correctly what you said but, the person goes in to prison for killing a human, it dosn't matter if he killed the right one or the wrong one.

He was convicted of killing a man. The "murdered" turned out and showed up to be alive, the one who was convicted for killing him and did 20 years in jail, killed him for real this time, should he do another 20 years in jail for the same "offense". In another words, should the system punish a criminal for doing the same crime twice?

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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 13:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pooh
The guy was "convicted" because he killed somebody. That is a murder he was "convicted" for! So he already punished for the crime that he will do after he dose 20 years in jail!
But he hadn't in fact killed somebody. The man he was said to have killed, was very much alive. The convicting was wrong, as was subsequent imprisonment.

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There are countries that do not have the compensation system for whatever time you do in jail even if you were found innocent eventually.
Wouldn't really matter all that much. The important part is that the verdict would be overturned and the man in question found not-guilty.

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The act of murder and the actual murder dose not really apply here because he already in the eyes of the law, state and society "did" commite the crime and got "convicted" for it!
But that was a wrong conviction. As soon as that error became know, the verdict would be overturned.

Quote:
There is nothing in law that could cancel the first conviction especially that he "did" it!
Of course there is. If someone is wrongfully convicted, that convicting can be overturned and the person in question found innocent. That he would commit a murder upon his release is a different matter, for which he would then have to stand trial again.

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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 13:48 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyo
But he hadn't in fact killed somebody. The man he was said to have killed, was very much alive. The convicting was wrong, as was subsequent imprisonment.
The fact that he was innocent and the conviction was wrong is not the subject here, in fact it is pretty much irrelative, I am talking law sense here. The fact that he got convicted and did his time is what the whole idea is about. The public order rule"one can not be convicted for the same crime more than once" is applied. It dose not matter if it make sense or not, but it dose apply, it dose not say if the conviction was wrong or write, it just says that if one got convicted for a crime, should not be convicted for the same crime again! I know it dose not make sense at all especially in the case we are discussing here but law dose not really represent sense in it's finest.

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Wouldn't really matter all that much. The important part is that the verdict would be overturned and the man in question found not-guilty.
mmmmm...I believe this is another case. If the court found the "suspect of the crime" innocent, then there is no conviction to start with. This is a whole different story brcause there is no crime at all. I am talking about a crime and a man the court found guilty and got punished for a thing that he "did not do it" He is innocent? yes. Is he innocent infront of the state, NO and that what matters because the public order is the in other words the state order.

Quote:
But that was a wrong conviction. As soon as that error became know, the verdict would be overturned.
Again, even if the conviction was totally wrong, still he was convicted. I am talking about a dude who "did" his time and finished his punishment in jail, this is can not be overturned by the same judicial system that issued the conviction.


Quote:
Of course there is. If someone is wrongfully convicted, that convicting can be overturned and the person in question found innocent. That he would commit a murder upon his release is a different matter, for which he would then have to stand trial again.
That is a totally different story again. If he commited "another" crime, then yes, send his arse to jail again for what he did. The question is: What if he committed the crime that he was in jail for?!

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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 14:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pooh
The fact that he was innocent and the conviction was wrong is not the subject here, in fact it is pretty much irrelative, I am talking law sense here. The fact that he got convicted and did his time is what the whole idea is about.
The time he did wasn't his to do, as he had done nothing wrong up to that point.

Quote:
It dose not matter if it make sense or not, but it dose apply, it dose not say if the conviction was wrong or write, it just says that if one got convicted for a crime, should not be convicted for the same crime again! I know it dose not make sense at all especially in the case we are discussing here but law dose not really represent sense in it's finest.
No, I think the law that someone cannot be convicted for the same crime twice, makes perfect sense. But it doesn't apply here.

In your theory, that person didn't commit the crime he was initially send to jail for, so he cannot (should not) even be convicted for it once, let alone twice. His crime was only committed after his release from prison.

Quote:
Again, even if the conviction was totally wrong, still he was convicted. I am talking about a dude who "did" his time and finished his punishment in jail, this is can not be overturned by the same judicial system that issued the conviction.
Why do you say it can't be overturned? That happens all the time.

Quote:
The question is: What if he committed the crime that he was in jail for?!
I know, but once you seperate the two issues, it becomes quite clear.

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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 15:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pooh
Aresto's definition for law is: REASON FREE OF PASSION. So....
I learned that by watching "Legally Blonde"

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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 15:26
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Excuse my ignorance, but can someone be accused of murder, if there is no body (as it apparently is the case in the Pooh example) in the first place?

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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 15:40
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Originally Posted by OAnimal
Excuse my ignorance, but can someone be accused of murder, if there is no body (as it apparently is the case in the Pooh example) in the first place?
Hardly. And also nobody can be sentenced for 20 years without the most important evidence in a murder case.
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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 15:57
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Originally Posted by OAnimal
Excuse my ignorance, but can someone be accused of murder, if there is no body (as it apparently is the case in the Pooh example) in the first place?
Yes, it happens all the time. Most recently the Scott Peterson case. I believe they indicted him prior to finding the body. Often a body is never found.

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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 16:03
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People can certainly be accused, tried and convicted without the appearance of a body. It has happened more often than you would think. There was a case in Northern California wherein some men beleived the fallacy of "no body no case" and completely disolved the victim's corpse in some type of caustic acid and, despite there being no physical body to tie them to the crime there was quite a bit of other evidence (witness and circumstancial as well as biological) tieing them to the crime and now one of them is serving a life sentence. People that think they've planned the perfect crime are usually too stupid to actually do it perfectly. Makes the detectives' job a lot easier.
As to the hypothetical case, most defence attorneys would probably be able to get the case dropped down to second degree murder or manslaughter since the killer hadn't premeditated the murder and he might get off with the time served. Or maybe not. Maybe a prosecutor could successfully argue that he HAD been thinking about the crime all those 20 years and try for a 1st. I doubt he or she would get it, though, so they would most likely try for 2nd. I think. Its been a while since pre-law. I'll ask my cousin who is a PD and report back what she says.

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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 16:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humbird
Yes, it happens all the time. Most recently the Scott Peterson case. I believe they indicted him prior to finding the body. Often a body is never found.
OK, but what is the conviction based on in such cases? Witnesses reports?

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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 16:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OAnimal
OK, but what is the conviction based on in such cases? Witnesses reports?
any number of ways, but mostly forensic evidence.

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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 16:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RIO
People can certainly be accused, tried and convicted without the appearance of a body. It has happened more often than you would think. There was a case in Northern California wherein some men beleived the fallacy of "no body no case" and completely disolved the victim's corpse in some type of caustic acid and, despite there being no physical body to tie them to the crime there was quite a bit of other evidence (witness and circumstancial as well as biological) tieing them to the crime and now one of them is serving a life sentence. People that think they've planned the perfect crime are usually too stupid to actually do it perfectly. Makes the detectives' job a lot easier.
As to the hypothetical case, most defence attorneys would probably be able to get the case dropped down to second degree murder or manslaughter since the killer hadn't premeditated the murder and he might get off with the time served. Or maybe not. Maybe a prosecutor could successfully argue that he HAD been thinking about the crime all those 20 years and try for a 1st. I doubt he or she would get it, though, so they would most likely try for 2nd. I think. Its been a while since pre-law. I'll ask my cousin who is a PD and report back what she says.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humbird
any number of ways, but mostly forensic evidence.
Thanks for the explanation. :thmbup:

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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old January 19th, 2006, 16:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humbird
Yes, it happens all the time. Most recently the Scott Peterson case. I believe they indicted him prior to finding the body. Often a body is never found.
I can't think of such a case that ever happened in Slovenia.
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