The 'death' of Ariel Sharon - Xtratime Community
 
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post #1 of 76 (permalink) Old January 8th, 2006, 16:08 Thread Starter
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The 'death' of Ariel Sharon

Sharon is the history of the Israeli state. He was injured fighting for Jerusalem in 1948. He led an incursion across Sinai and into Egypt during the 1973 Yom Kippur War. As Defense Minister, he was saddled with responsibility for the massacre of Palestinian refugees at Sabra and Shatila in 1982. The White House today called him “a man of peace,” but within his own country he is known as a warrior, and one finally willing to make the kinds of concessions that only a warrior can make.

So what now? A blogger in Israel, Lisa Goldman of On the Face — and certainly no fan of Sharon — said the country feels “rudderless.” Sharon forged his own unique brand of diplomacy, of aggressive, rude disengagement, claiming that he would never relinquish the temple mount, then relinquishing Gaza.

Is (was?) Sharon a mirror of Israel, a fighter who is painfully learning how to give things up? Is he, like Bob Dole or Germany’s Helmut Kohl, the last of the leaders who fought in the old wars? Who has the stature to do what needs to be done next?

Personally, I think that the man will die soon. Maybe within the coming month. And I wish him eternal rest. The truth however remains that Sharon is/was a dinosaur, a creation of the circumstances that lead to the creation of the state of Israel. And ultimately, a victim of the times. 10 years ago Sharon was unsympathetic about the fate of Yithzak Rabin, but now he has also come to give land away to the Palestinians. Why is that? Because when he finally got into the hot seat, he realised what Rabin saw then: the state of Israel cannot continue to fight with the Palestinians ad infinitum! They have to make peace.

When Netanyahu becomes Prime Minister again, he'll reach that realisation. Insh'Allah.

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post #2 of 76 (permalink) Old January 8th, 2006, 17:44
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Whenever I saw Bush with Sharon, I couldnt help but say: "Damn sucka, you betta get in shape soon. The future of yo nation is in yo clammy, chubby hands, sucka!"




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post #3 of 76 (permalink) Old January 8th, 2006, 19:32
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i wish him no sympathy... god will decide his fate and judge him fairly

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post #4 of 76 (permalink) Old January 8th, 2006, 21:27
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Indeed, no sympathy whatsoever. Sabra & Shatila will never be forgotten.

As for his successor I doubt we'll be expecting any drastic changes.

1. There still will be an intifada, while "Israel" continues to build a Berlin-like wall. Only this one will not witness a Berlin-like demise.
2. Settlements with continue to expand in occupied WB Palestinian territories, which just begs the question on their legitimacy. Then again...this is "Israel" we're talking about.
3. There will be no decision on the Palestinian refugees' right of return, while they continue to live in dysmal conditions in Lebanese camps. Of course, Jews are allowed to be shipped from allll over Europe and the World to "Israel" in order to create a state, but how ironic the original inhabitants are not allowed to come back.
4. Shebaa farms and Golan will continue to be occupied.
5. Lebanon's airspace will continue to be violated for no apparent or valid reason.
6. Palestinians residing in WB/Gaza will continue to be treated as second class citizens, with the utmost oppression and disrespect. Hmm, apartheid anyone?

As a result of #4 and #5 the Lebanese Army and Islamic Resistance will remain at firm guard on our southern borders.

Don't lament the treachery of time;
long have dogs danced over the carcasses of lions.

Don't suppose that their dancing raises them above their masters;
for dogs remain dogs, and lions remain lions.

Insult me as you wish;
For my silence to the depraved is a response.

It's not that I have no response, but;
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post #5 of 76 (permalink) Old January 8th, 2006, 21:34
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So Sharon's decision to hand the Gaza Strip over to the Palestinians finds no gratitude whatsoever?




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post #6 of 76 (permalink) Old January 8th, 2006, 21:38
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After what? Bombing all of west-Beirut, and Southern Lebanon, taking the lives of innocent people just so he could fight his war on our turf while applying expansionist ideologies on our land?

Nope.

Don't lament the treachery of time;
long have dogs danced over the carcasses of lions.

Don't suppose that their dancing raises them above their masters;
for dogs remain dogs, and lions remain lions.

Insult me as you wish;
For my silence to the depraved is a response.

It's not that I have no response, but;
A lion does not reply to a dog.
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post #7 of 76 (permalink) Old January 8th, 2006, 22:08
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Sharon is already dead, even he stay alive he wont be a politician again, his time is over.
He has in his back so many palestinian death ... as Rhizoid said ... the world wont forget Sabra and Shatilla ... the world can not forget thouse houses that he sand to destroy with bulldozer, just because maybe there could live a palestinian that fight against the ocupation ... girls, boys, old, women, men that died in the attacks ... tanks against stones.
In a way he send to evacuet to the settler and in the other he send to built the wall ...

God forgive Sharon i think he doesnt deserve the men forgivness ... but when he died he will be burried with hero honors ... I hope he doesnt die now ... i wish him a long life with the after-effects of the brain attack, i hope he has a long life with the capacity to think is everything he did.
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post #8 of 76 (permalink) Old January 8th, 2006, 22:10
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So he shouldnt have given Gaza to the Palestinians in the first place?




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post #9 of 76 (permalink) Old January 8th, 2006, 22:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chxta
When Netanyahu becomes Prime Minister again, he'll reach that realisation. Insh'Allah.
I wouldn't be too sure. He didn't during his previous term, so what makes you think he will this time?

Despite what Sharon did in the past, his recent actions were of an entirely different order and when you consider the opposition from within Likud to him and to his policy, it's unlikely that his replacement will follow in Sharon's footsteps.

If in Sharon's place, a hardliner takes office, it will bring with it a departure from the course that Sharon was on, and that Rabin was on 10 years before him. If progress' next step is taken another 10 years from now, then the region shouldn't celebrate Sharon's demise, but mourn it.

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post #10 of 76 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2006, 00:30
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He can rot in hell for all I care! Hopefully he suffers so bad before he gets in tha sh!thole like a disgusting pig!

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post #11 of 76 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2006, 06:57 Thread Starter
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People don't forgive and forget do they?

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post #12 of 76 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2006, 09:24
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He is not finished.


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post #13 of 76 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2006, 19:01
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He can rot in hell for all I care! Hopefully he suffers so bad before he gets in tha sh!thole like a disgusting pig!
Thats not very nice....But then again I'd expect you to say that.




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post #14 of 76 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2006, 19:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chxta
People don't forgive and forget do they?
Just try to be, for one second, in the place of the ppl that survived Sabra and Shatilla, Ramalla, Gaza Strip ... etc etc etc .... do u think is easy to forget????

And forgive .... just God can forgive.

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post #15 of 76 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2006, 19:12
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Forgetting's easy. After all, you seem to have forgotten the hundreds of thousands of lives that he saved by successfully defending Israel from the Arab countries that sought to kill all Israeli Jews. It's remedial Bastiat all over again.

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post #16 of 76 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2006, 20:00
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how is bulldozing a houses or striking via air at random as a lash back defending?
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post #17 of 76 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2006, 21:00
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Originally Posted by Lite®nit
how is bulldozing a houses or striking via air at random as a lash back defending?
Im no expert, but Israeli intelligence claims to justify their acts, no?




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post #18 of 76 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2006, 21:04
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Forgetting's easy. After all, you seem to have forgotten the hundreds of thousands of lives that he saved by successfully defending Israel from the Arab countries that sought to kill all Israeli Jews. It's remedial Bastiat all over again.
Again, we interpret things differently here.

You obviously see 100% legitimacy for the "Israeli-State" hence you set forth this tone as if you are speaking on their behalf (noticed this in a previous thread as well). No problem there, everyone is entitled to their own POV and opinion.

However, you give me the impression that you have no consideration whatsoever for the Arab inhabitants who had to evacuate as a result of 1948...and the rest of history that follows. Are those lives unworthy? Or is OK for them to be treated like animals, or "cockroaches" as they've been so eloquently described by Goldameir.

Naturally, the Arabs saw these Jewish immigrants as intruders, hence the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948. Most Arabs still do, in fact, see them as intruders. OTOH, you have people (like myself) who not only see them as intruders, but pretty much acknowledge the fact that these intruders are here to stay. What happened in post-48 happened, this is the status quo like it or not. Hard truth for us Arabs, but Jordan and Egypt have so far learned to live with it, while the rest of the Arab nations mind their own business...or carry out under-the-table business - alot of rumors here that Qatari and Emarati businessmen do secret deals with Israelis.

Anyway, my point being - we have problems that need to be tackled, yet soooo much time is being wasted, and it's costing Palestinians their lives and their homes. We had Camp Davids, Madrids, Oslos, more Olsos, more Camp Davids, Road Maps...all were failures, followed by new ideas to come up with solutions. It seems that time is meaningless on Israel's side. Look at the timeline - when did we last have a breakthrough between the two sides? 1993's Oslo. Then what? The Gaza pullout in 2005. That's 12 years for God's sake! When is the next "milestone"?

Spare me the you-had-the-chance-in-Camp-David-II-but-Arafat-threw-it-away argument, because the offer Barak made was no different than what we are seeing in Palestine today.

Don't lament the treachery of time;
long have dogs danced over the carcasses of lions.

Don't suppose that their dancing raises them above their masters;
for dogs remain dogs, and lions remain lions.

Insult me as you wish;
For my silence to the depraved is a response.

It's not that I have no response, but;
A lion does not reply to a dog.
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post #19 of 76 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2006, 21:33
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Again, we interpret things differently here.

You obviously see 100% legitimacy for the "Israeli-State" hence you set forth this tone as if you are speaking on their behalf (noticed this in a previous thread as well). No problem there, everyone is entitled to their own POV and opinion.
One can't debate with someone the political legacy of the Prime Minister of Israel if one refuses to recognise Israel in the first place. That's something that you have to change, not me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhizoid
However, you give me the impression that you have no consideration whatsoever for the Arab inhabitants who had to evacuate as a result of 1948...and the rest of history that follows. Are those lives unworthy? Or is OK for them to be treated like animals, or "cockroaches" as they've been so eloquently described by Goldameir.
They chose to retreat to advancing and aggressive Arab armies. Unlike the Jews that were forcibly expelled from Arabia, Egypt, the Maghreb, Mesopotamia, and the Near East, they didn't have to evacuate. In fact, they were implored to stay.

WE APPEAL, in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months, to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.


Those were amongst the first words of Medinat Israel. That wasn't when Israel had the upper hand, or when it was easy to forgive what the Arab governments had done. After all, the War of Independence was ongoing. No, the Israelis wrote it when they were most justified to feel aggrieved, when they found it hardest to reach out to their expansionist neighbours, and they put it in the most important document that they've ever written to signify that they meant it. Clearly, with only two exceptions, the Arab governments never intend to reciprocate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhizoid
the Arabs ... most Arabs ... us Arabs
I love the way that you try to grab the high ground by writing "us Arabs". By my mother's ancestry, I am an Arab, and a Lebanese one, too. Like my grandparents before me and the one million that are proud to call themselves Israeli citizens, I am merely one that supports the existence of Israel, and supports a swift resolution of the problem with Israel as an integral part.

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post #20 of 76 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2006, 22:01
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Im no expert, but Israeli intelligence claims to justify their acts, no?
like american intelligence claimed WMD? there were countless stories reported by the press on how the attacks killed nothing but civilians and how some houses that had nothing to do with terrorist were bulldozed.

A lot of the times it was just a cruel answer to the suicide bombings that killed israelis or clearing path

Last edited by Liternit; January 9th, 2006 at 22:06.
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