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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old January 2nd, 2006, 18:44 Thread Starter
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Russian gas theft

Russia quadrupled ther required gas price to Ukraine which Ukraine rightfully objected, russias answere was to stop the gas flow to Ukraine and thereby also gas flow to Europe.

About a week ago russia claimed nothing was done wrong by the army and police when hundreds of people, many children died in Beslan. Before that Putin seriously curtailed the freedom of independent organisations in russia. All this while openly supporting the dictator regime i Belarus

Its more and more clear that Putin is no different then previous russian leaders, an untrustworty liar dreaming of long gone russian glory days. Russia is not europe and does not want europes best and should therfore be dealth with that way.

What do you think is the best policy towards russia?
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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old January 2nd, 2006, 19:40
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Russia is free to sell their gas at whichever price they want. The price that they want to charge Ukraine is a common market price, so there's nothing wrong with that. The price that they previously paid was far below the market price, and was one that Russia reserved for nations that they have good relations with. Ukraine made it clear that they want to head away from Russia, so this move was to be expected. Russia offered Ukraine to raise the price in several phases, so that they did not have to deal with the sudden increase all at once, but Ukraine refused. So, just as would happen with any other service that someone doesn't pay for, they stopped delivery.

The gas delivery to Europe is an unrelated matter, the fact that it's decreasing now, is because Ukraine is using it for their own needs. If the EU is to do anything, they should urge Ukraine to stop stealing their gas.

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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old January 2nd, 2006, 19:57 Thread Starter
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Although you put it in in a different cloth you practically say the same as i do. Russia rather support a dictator state and put cogs in the wheel for states that want to move closer to Europe and away from authoritarian and undemocratic Russia. I agree that russia has the right to do this, but agin it shows their intent and they should be treated according to that. And gas delivery to europe is ofcourse not an unrelated matter, its a pathetic attempt of showing strenght from russias side. We all know they will soon open up the pipelines cos they cant afford to play the big boy the are no more. 1-2 weeks and everything will be the same.

But this gas circus is just one of many examples of russias alienation from europe and democracy.
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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old January 2nd, 2006, 20:21
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Of course, Russia has the right to sell gas at any price they wants, but Ukraine can't change gaz suppliers or find any alternative solution in fews weeks or even fews months. Ukraine could increase the tax on the gaz pipeline transit on their soil as well.
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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old January 2nd, 2006, 20:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungaria
And gas delivery to europe is ofcourse not an unrelated matter
I meant it's unrelated to the price increase. The European nations already paid a similar amount to what Russia is charging Ukraine now. So the European contracts are unaffected by this.

But it has become an issue now, because the pipelines that are used in the transport of the gas from Russia to the European nations it concerns, run across Ukraine, so Ukraine can simply divert (part of) that flow to meet their own requirements, as they've already done.

Understandable of course, they are in a position of power as such, and their people for a large part rely on gas for their energy needs. But it is in effect theft. As a result, the delivery to the Europeans has decreased. And for that Ukraine is to blame, not Russia. But I assume that's also done knowing that Europe will get involved that way.

Certainly it's power play, from both sides, and no doubt a solution will be reached soon, but it does illustrate the dangers of depending too much on a foreign nation for one's energy needs.

When it comes to Russia and the authoritarian mentality that you referred to, it would be interesting to place this development in light of the acquisition by the Russian state of Yukos' assets and the treatment of Khodorkovsky.

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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old January 3rd, 2006, 07:23 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyo
I meant it's unrelated to the price increase. The European nations already paid a similar amount to what Russia is charging Ukraine now. So the European contracts are unaffected by this.

But it has become an issue now, because the pipelines that are used in the transport of the gas from Russia to the European nations it concerns, run across Ukraine, so Ukraine can simply divert (part of) that flow to meet their own requirements, as they've already done.

Understandable of course, they are in a position of power as such, and their people for a large part rely on gas for their energy needs. But it is in effect theft. As a result, the delivery to the Europeans has decreased. And for that Ukraine is to blame, not Russia. But I assume that's also done knowing that Europe will get involved that way.
There is a deal with signed contracts between european states and russia which says russia should deliver gas to these states. Then russia makes a unilateral move which turns these contracts upside down, not because of a "shift to market prices" but because they want to destroy the democratically elected governments program in Ukraine to rather move towards democratcy and freedom instead of submtting to rusian hegemony and authoritarian rule. But if we want to continue the ferry tale stories of market price adjustments then the gas that ukraine has diverted is just a higher rent for using their pipelines so nothing wrong with that in that case.

The point is exactly tha europe should be involved, not because ukraine is adapting to russias blackmail but because this in the wider sense is a power struggle between one nation that aims for freedom and democracy and one that aims for some lvery different

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Originally Posted by Boyo
Certainly it's power play, from both sides, and no doubt a solution will be reached soon, but it does illustrate the dangers of depending too much on a foreign nation for one's energy needs.
Correct, and i admit i was wrong when i predicted russia will change stance in 1 or 2 weeks, it took one day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyo
When it comes to Russia and the authoritarian mentality that you referred to, it would be interesting to place this development in light of the acquisition by the Russian state of Yukos' assets and the treatment of Khodorkovsky.
Im sure Khodorkovsky was not an innocent little schoolboy but the whitchhunt against him was obviously about larger issues then some corruption or tax problems. As i said there is events after events that show that russia is moving more and more towards a centralised authoritarian rule where those who critisize the government or Putin are silenced, be it NGO:s, journalists, private entrepeneurs. Its about time europe takes of the silk gloves when dealing with russia.
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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old January 3rd, 2006, 13:27
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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old January 3rd, 2006, 16:25
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hungaria I'm sure you love to rant against Russia but simply you're wrong in this one...Russia was doing Ukraine a large favour by selling them gas at a very low price, no? They were doing them this favour because Ukraine was pro-Russia or Russia-leaning, there were plans to integrate Russian and Ukranian markets and economies etc. Now Ukraine makes a U-turn towards the West and becomes hostile to Russia even obviously that means no more favours for Ukraine. It's completely irrelevant whether the government is democratically elected or not and I doubt Russia cares about that. They only care about their interests. Just like any other country. I'm sure we can find examples of the United States doing similar things.
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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old January 3rd, 2006, 17:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrix
I'm sure we can find examples of the United States doing similar things.
....or even hungary

also, since when do you steal something that belongs to you?
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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old January 3rd, 2006, 18:23
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LOL This is ridiculous.

Idiotic posts like these deserve a lifetime ban from Xtratime.

S R B
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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old January 3rd, 2006, 18:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aca
also, since when do you steal something that belongs to you?

checkmate

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Idiotic posts like these deserve a lifetime ban from Xtratime.
We'd lose more than half the members then
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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old January 3rd, 2006, 18:57 Thread Starter
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Unbeliavable.

Lets first sort out the blubber...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aca
also, since when do you steal something that belongs to you?
Something you have sold to someone doesent belong to you.

Then continue with the misunderstandings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrix
hungaria I'm sure you love to rant against Russia but simply you're wrong in this one...Russia was doing Ukraine a large favour by selling them gas at a very low price, no? They were doing them this favour because Ukraine was pro-Russia or Russia-leaning, there were plans to integrate Russian and Ukranian markets and economies etc. Now Ukraine makes a U-turn towards the West and becomes hostile to Russia even obviously that means no more favours for Ukraine. It's completely irrelevant whether the government is democratically elected or not and I doubt Russia cares about that. They only care about their interests. Just like any other country. I'm sure we can find examples of the United States doing similar things.
You miss my point completly so before you call somethig rant you should try to understand it. I said it very clearly that russia has "right" to do this, just as they had "right" to kill a couple of hundred chidren in Beslan or just as they had "right" to close down critical TV stations. I also said quite clearly that this is a power struggle (obviously). And ofcourse we can find examples of other states doing similar things, hey eureka!

My point was that Europe should stand up against a state that obviously act against the interrests of the european states and those who wants to strengthen their relations with western europe.

Its also fun to see the serbian cavallery line up in defence of undemocratic russia and its moves when serbia is one of the most hard hit states by this russian act. Seems like big brother doesent give a damn about you
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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old January 3rd, 2006, 19:15
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if you have a contract to sell something and you dont - you breach the contract, you dont steal.

you are a li'll bit off arent you huh?
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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old January 3rd, 2006, 19:18
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...and get of your donkey with a serb issue

it's just all too revealing....
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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old January 3rd, 2006, 20:10 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aca
if you have a contract to sell something and you dont - you breach the contract, you dont steal.

you are a li'll bit off arent you huh?
Yeah sure and the car thieve who was stopped by the police said he only borrowed it.

Seems my point wa to complicated for you.

Hint: It has nothing to do with semantics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aca
...and get of your donkey with a serb issue

it's just all too revealing....
Tell them not to follow me and i will, i promise.

Btw what does it reveal? That the serbs in this thread defend russia nomather what, even if its against their countries interrest? I wonder who is sitting on donkeys.
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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old January 3rd, 2006, 20:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungaria
Something you have sold to someone doesent belong to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aca
if you have a contract to sell something and you dont - you breach the contract, you dont steal.
Based on what's been reported here, neither scenario applies. The old contract, for the lower price, expired on the last day of 2005, so from January 1st onward, Russia wouldn't be in breach of contract, nor would they be stealing, as currently Russia isn't under any obligation to supply Ukraine with gas, for there simply isn't a contractual agreement.

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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old January 3rd, 2006, 20:50
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so russia has a contract with Ukraine to sell the gas, which expired and they stopped the delivery...

thiefs those russians......

your point is too complicated for me only because you have no point You call the thief the actual owner. then you say it's not semantics. well, what is it then?

who are they? serbs? a collective noun? a bunch of elves? your childhood nightmare? throwing everything in one basket...heheheh.....how convenient way to derail the argument that you dont have.....blame it on serbs

also it has nothing to do with attacking or defending russia. It has a lot to do with calling things as they are, not as concucted in ones head.
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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old January 3rd, 2006, 21:26 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyo
Based on what's been reported here, neither scenario applies. The old contract, for the lower price, expired on the last day of 2005, so from January 1st onward, Russia wouldn't be in breach of contract, nor would they be stealing, as currently Russia isn't under any obligation to supply Ukraine with gas, for there simply isn't a contractual agreement.
Russia has long time contract with EU but with their unilateral move they stopped gas which they had sold to europe so yes the scenario applies. But as i said they didnt dare to play tough more then one day so its all normal again. Just the regular undemocratic power search from Putin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aca
so russia has a contract with Ukraine to sell the gas, which expired and they stopped the delivery...

thiefs those russians......
Quote:
Originally Posted by aca
your point is too complicated for me only because you have no point You call the thief the actual owner. then you say it's not semantics. well, what is it then?
Loook i have already understood you dont get it, you dont have to convince me anymore. But will be nice and spell it out once more, just for you, Ukraine or Serbs is not the issue here, EU-Russia is.
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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old January 3rd, 2006, 21:28
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This one hilarious thread

Kudos to Hungaria for argumenting for such an OBVIOUS non-case, its highly entertaining.

A bit like a shady lawyer(meaning everyone of em ) making a case for a big serial killer


P.S I'm solely refering to you calling Russia thiefs
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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old January 3rd, 2006, 21:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungaria
Russia has long time contract with EU but with their unilateral move they stopped gas which they had sold to europe so yes the scenario applies.
I'm not sure Russia's deal is with the EU, but rather with individual European nations. In any event, it's besides the point, as Russia hasn't stopped delivery to those European nations, but to Ukraine.

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