Stanley 'Tookie' Williams - Xtratime Community
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 21:25 Thread Starter
Premier Player
 
Barca Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06 2003
Location: Cambridge, MA
Teams: Barcelona
Posts: 2,445
Stanley 'Tookie' Williams

I looked for a thread about this here, but never found one. I know we've had numerous capital punishment threads, but what the hell: Stanley "Tookie" Williams was executed earlier today after Governor Shwarzenegger refused to grant him clemency. Upon hearing of Schwarzenegger’s clemency denial for "Tookie", Reverend Jesse Jackson rightly responded with outrage. However, his basis for anger raises some troubling questions for capital punishment in America. Jackson told the press that Tookie had "earned his clemency." In fairness to Reverend Jackson, many Tookie supporters feel the same way. After all, Mr. Williams has spent a great deal of his jail time writing children’s stories and advocating for an end to gang-violence--activities that have led to his nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize on five different occasions.
All of this, however, misses the point.

For Governor Schwarzenegger to grant clemency on the basis of redemption, America’s capital punishment system would become predicated upon factors such as social worth and personal transformation. Would a death row prisoner receive clemency if he found God and ministered to other prisoners? How about a prominent professional who continues to provide invaluable advice to the outside corporate world? An inventor, novelist or painter on death row? Whose contributions are worthy of redemption, and are we comfortable allowing the government to decide? Tookie’s case is more than an isolated tragedy; rather it highlights the broad structural problems with capital punishment in America.

As Sister Helen Prejean once wrote, "Every person is worth more than their worst act." The display of activists supporting Tookie demonstrates that we can and do find worth and redemption in even the most violent murderers. Of course, the victim or victims have been deprived of living out the rest of their lives. Yet, something is awry when we choose to extinguish the remaining value inherent in a person in order to satisfy a fleeting--if at all nourishing--sense of vengeance.

Balanced against these momentary feelings of retribution and finality due to the victim’s friends and family--and perhaps society itself--must be the terrible feelings of loss and suffering by the family and friends of the convicted. The retribution is not symmetrical. The father and mother of the condemned did as little to 'deserve' the loss of a child as the parents of the victim did. To family, friends and, as we have see in the Tookie case—society--, the convicted men and woman in this country retain worth and social importance. These feelings of misery and loss inflicted upon involved, yet innocent family and friends impacted by the State of California’s execution of Tookie Williams simply cannot be justified by the victims’ families right to retribution.

Add to mix the fact that the system simply gets it all wrong sometimes--164 exonerated death row inmates as of December 12, 2005--, and I have a hard time finding the social value in capital punishment. As a country, the US needs to reflect on the "difficult and unusual" circumstances of the Tookie case in order to evaluate just how far the distance is between Tookie’s situation and the situation of other inmates on Death Row. If American society cannot find sustainable reasons to uphold a practice barred by the rest of the industrialized world--a practice that is costly in every sense of the word--then it must, as a society, demand change.
Barca Rule is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 21:40
Nasty Woman
Forum Manager
Xtratime Legend
 
Humbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11 2000
Location: USA
Teams: Argentina, Lazio, Fiorentina
Posts: 22,582
he was a murderous monster. I don't miss him at all.

But tomorrow is new day and new chance. -- Alija

Nel cielo biancazzurro brilla un'altra stella - In the lightblue sky another star shines. Alija tu non sarai mai sola. Alija you will never be alone.
Humbird is offline  
post #3 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 22:13
Flo
Legend
 
Flo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04 2002
Location: California
Teams: SL Benfica, Liverpool, & AC Milan
Posts: 14,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barca Rule
I looked for a thread about this here, but never found one. I know we've had numerous capital punishment threads, but what the hell: Stanley "Tookie" Williams was executed earlier today after Governor Shwarzenegger refused to grant him clemency. Upon hearing of Schwarzenegger’s clemency denial for "Tookie", Reverend Jesse Jackson rightly responded with outrage. However, his basis for anger raises some troubling questions for capital punishment in America. Jackson told the press that Tookie had "earned his clemency." In fairness to Reverend Jackson, many Tookie supporters feel the same way. After all, Mr. Williams has spent a great deal of his jail time writing children’s stories and advocating for an end to gang-violence--activities that have led to his nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize on five different occasions.
All of this, however, misses the point.

For Governor Schwarzenegger to grant clemency on the basis of redemption, America’s capital punishment system would become predicated upon factors such as social worth and personal transformation. Would a death row prisoner receive clemency if he found God and ministered to other prisoners? How about a prominent professional who continues to provide invaluable advice to the outside corporate world? An inventor, novelist or painter on death row? Whose contributions are worthy of redemption, and are we comfortable allowing the government to decide? Tookie’s case is more than an isolated tragedy; rather it highlights the broad structural problems with capital punishment in America.

As Sister Helen Prejean once wrote, "Every person is worth more than their worst act." The display of activists supporting Tookie demonstrates that we can and do find worth and redemption in even the most violent murderers. Of course, the victim or victims have been deprived of living out the rest of their lives. Yet, something is awry when we choose to extinguish the remaining value inherent in a person in order to satisfy a fleeting--if at all nourishing--sense of vengeance.

Balanced against these momentary feelings of retribution and finality due to the victim’s friends and family--and perhaps society itself--must be the terrible feelings of loss and suffering by the family and friends of the convicted. The retribution is not symmetrical. The father and mother of the condemned did as little to 'deserve' the loss of a child as the parents of the victim did. To family, friends and, as we have see in the Tookie case—society--, the convicted men and woman in this country retain worth and social importance. These feelings of misery and loss inflicted upon involved, yet innocent family and friends impacted by the State of California’s execution of Tookie Williams simply cannot be justified by the victims’ families right to retribution.

Add to mix the fact that the system simply gets it all wrong sometimes--164 exonerated death row inmates as of December 12, 2005--, and I have a hard time finding the social value in capital punishment. As a country, the US needs to reflect on the "difficult and unusual" circumstances of the Tookie case in order to evaluate just how far the distance is between Tookie’s situation and the situation of other inmates on Death Row. If American society cannot find sustainable reasons to uphold a practice barred by the rest of the industrialized world--a practice that is costly in every sense of the word--then it must, as a society, demand change.

Guess what? This has all taken place in my state and right down the road. He was put to death and for good reason. Not only did he kill 4 people but he butchered them maliciously in the process. Sorry dude, you do that you go to hell in my book.

Writing children's books for the sake of looking like a changed man ain't going to help you in this process.
Flo is offline  
 
post #4 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 22:43
Tim
Xtratime Legend
 
Tim's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03 2000
Location: Texico
Posts: 33,807
I'm sorry that he died by lethal injection...

...because they should have rather fried his sorry ass.

The thing is, I seriously doubt he would have spoken out against gang violence and written children's books if he had received life in prison instead. It's always the ones that sit on death row that suddenly find Jesus, write books, become activists, and what have you.

It reminds me of Karla Faye Tucker's execution. Some people tried painting her as a changed person because she was "preaching the Gospel" to other inmates. Didn't change the fact that she chopped up a couple of people, just like "Tookie" preaching against gang violence doesn't change that he went out his way to take a shotgun to four people.

There are criminals that could and should be rehabilitated, but these don't include cold, calculating murderers.
Tim is offline  
post #5 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 22:45
Legend
Legend
 
Andrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04 2001
Location: Toronto
Teams: Partizan
Posts: 15,157
Quote:
It's always the ones that sit on death row that suddenly find Jesus, write books, become activists, and what have you.
Well you know things like that might be genuine (once you realise you're going to die you suddenly start thinking about such things and pondering about how you killed) or it could be "faking" as a last-ditch effort to save one's own skin...regardless, I don't think it should be grounds for clemency. Mind you, I'm against the death penalty.
Andrix is offline  
post #6 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 22:48
Nasty Woman
Forum Manager
Xtratime Legend
 
Humbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11 2000
Location: USA
Teams: Argentina, Lazio, Fiorentina
Posts: 22,582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim
I'm sorry that he died by lethal injection...

...because they should have rather fried his sorry ass.

The thing is, I seriously doubt he would have spoken out against gang violence and written children's books if he had received life in prison instead. It's always the ones that sit on death row that suddenly find Jesus, write books, become activists, and what have you.

It reminds me of Karla Faye Tucker's execution. Some people tried painting her as a changed person because she was "preaching the Gospel" to other inmates. Didn't change the fact that she chopped up a couple of people, just like "Tookie" preaching against gang violence doesn't change that he went out his way to take a shotgun to four people.

There are criminals that could and should be rehabilitated, but these don't include cold, calculating murderers.
Didn't Karla Faye Tucker at least have the balls to admit what she did? Old Tooke never did.

But tomorrow is new day and new chance. -- Alija

Nel cielo biancazzurro brilla un'altra stella - In the lightblue sky another star shines. Alija tu non sarai mai sola. Alija you will never be alone.
Humbird is offline  
post #7 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 22:52
RIP Alton Ellis
International
 
Rondinaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05 2000
Location: Catalonia
Teams: Leeds, Barça and Celtic
Posts: 5,657
Of course it had to be Tim, Humbird and Flo that defended one of the increasing number of things that the USA have in common with Iran, Burma, North Korea, China to name but a few. You could have almost predicted it.

Formerly known as A.J.
Rondinaire is offline  
post #8 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 23:04
World Class Player
World Class Player
 
Bastin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, the UK
Teams: Arsenal, Watford, UK NTs, and dozens more.
Posts: 7,673
If you're sick of Americans defending America, I'll put a British spin on it. This was exactly the sort of occasion for which the gallows were invented.

Glen: "That last post of Bastin's is just too authoritative to argue against."

gOD: "It scares the f*ck out of me but I'm with Bastin here."

Cacìni: "Ah, there you go using that absurd über-memory of your's...not fair."

Boyo: "Even when it comes to rap, Bastin is an authority."

Attila_the_Nun: "A most respected scion of Misty Albion, the illustious Bastin - the redoubtable defender of all our noble traditions."

Humbird: "Bastin is very attractive when talking nautical! "
Bastin is offline  
post #9 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 23:04
Honorable Mention, February 2013 XT Photo Contest
Forum Manager
Xtratime Legend
 
barça's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02 2003
Location: half here - half there
Teams: FC Barcelona
Posts: 21,026
Its sad that a state puts a man to death.

Gràcies Pare, descansi en pau.
barça is offline  
post #10 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 23:10
RIP Alton Ellis
International
 
Rondinaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05 2000
Location: Catalonia
Teams: Leeds, Barça and Celtic
Posts: 5,657
That kind of gung-ho politics is not defending America, I'm afraid. In fact it's decidedly un-American and has no place in the modern world. If you want more proof of the attitude I'm referring to, go to the closed thread on the riots in Sydney. Nothing to do with America there, just very sad extremism.
That's why it was closed, I suppose.

Formerly known as A.J.
Rondinaire is offline  
post #11 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 23:12
Legend
 
MxPx's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05 2000
Location: Vienna, Austria
Teams: FC Barcelona, First Vienna FC 1894
Posts: 10,150
Regardless of the case of Tookie Williams, that I am very skeptic about, the death penalty remains a barbaric and pointless punishment. And it's indeed a shame that the leader of the free world still uses it and even with pride, so it seems.

On another note, funny that it took such an occasion for Austrian politicians to notice that Arnie is not really that great after all. A simple-minded idiot on steroids, whose greatest accomplishments are that he's a) sleeping with a Kennedy and b) hasn't strangled himself yet while washing his neck in the morning. Way to go Arnie, we're proud of you!

I'm not normally a praying man, but if you're up there, please save me, Superman.
MxPx is offline  
post #12 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 23:20
First Place winner, June 2010 Photo Contest
Xtratime Legend
 
Boyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05 2000
Posts: 37,190
Blog Entries: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Johanneson
Of course it had to be Tim, Humbird and Flo that defended one of the increasing number of things that the USA have in common with Iran, Burma, North Korea, China to name but a few. You could have almost predicted it.
If you decide to post in this thread, can you please also contribute something that is related to the actual topic at hand, rather than merely make snide, suggestive remarks about other posters. Thank you.

Mercedes bastard & Limburger-loving schmuck

Last edited by Boyo; December 13th, 2005 at 23:26.
Boyo is offline  
post #13 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 23:22
World Class Player
World Class Player
 
Bastin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, the UK
Teams: Arsenal, Watford, UK NTs, and dozens more.
Posts: 7,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Johanneson
That kind of gung-ho politics is not defending America, I'm afraid. In fact it's decidedly un-American and has no place in the modern world.
This has nothing to do with "gung-ho politics", however you or your group of 'extremists' decides to define it. It is the defence of the judicial principles, procedures, and practices of the United States of America. It is also, by implication, a rebuttal of your comparison of the USA to "Iran, Burma, North Korea, China to name but a few". It is decidedly American to refute such ridiculous comparisons.

Glen: "That last post of Bastin's is just too authoritative to argue against."

gOD: "It scares the f*ck out of me but I'm with Bastin here."

Cacìni: "Ah, there you go using that absurd über-memory of your's...not fair."

Boyo: "Even when it comes to rap, Bastin is an authority."

Attila_the_Nun: "A most respected scion of Misty Albion, the illustious Bastin - the redoubtable defender of all our noble traditions."

Humbird: "Bastin is very attractive when talking nautical! "
Bastin is offline  
post #14 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 23:31
Legend
 
MxPx's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05 2000
Location: Vienna, Austria
Teams: FC Barcelona, First Vienna FC 1894
Posts: 10,150
I for one refuse to believe that it's typically American to silence criticism by deliberately straining the truth. Surely such tactics are not exclusive to citizens of a particular country, but rather used by holier-than-thou people world-wide, no?

I'm not normally a praying man, but if you're up there, please save me, Superman.
MxPx is offline  
post #15 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 23:45
RIP Alton Ellis
International
 
Rondinaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05 2000
Location: Catalonia
Teams: Leeds, Barça and Celtic
Posts: 5,657
Boyo, I don't know who you are but this forum is full of all kinds of offensive (and snide) stuff far worse than anything I've posted, with little evidence of people being warned in such a manner so early on in a thread (referring to recent ones about the Balkan strife or Australia). So think before posting and compare my tone with such lovely stuff as "should have fried his sorry arse", which I'm led to believe is "the defence of the judicial principles, procedures, and practices of the United States of America".
Thank you.

Formerly known as A.J.
Rondinaire is offline  
post #16 of 135 (permalink) Old December 13th, 2005, 23:50
First Place winner, June 2010 Photo Contest
Xtratime Legend
 
Boyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05 2000
Posts: 37,190
Blog Entries: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Johanneson
Boyo, I don't know who you are but this forum is full of all kinds of offensive (and snide) stuff far worse than anything I've posted, with little evidence of people being warned in such a manner so early on in a thread (referring to recent ones about the Balkan strife or Australia). So think before posting and compare my tone with such lovely stuff as "should have fried his sorry arse", which I'm led to believe is "the defence of the judicial principles, procedures, and practices of the United States of America".
Thank you.
The comment you referred to wasn't directed against another poster, yours were. The Balkan or Australian matters aren't relevant to this thread, nor do they offer an excuse for your remarks. Take what I said to heart, and for your next post try to actually argue something that's related to the topic at hand.

Mercedes bastard & Limburger-loving schmuck
Boyo is offline  
post #17 of 135 (permalink) Old December 14th, 2005, 00:11
RIP Alton Ellis
International
 
Rondinaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05 2000
Location: Catalonia
Teams: Leeds, Barça and Celtic
Posts: 5,657
Ok, I accept that directing posts at other contributors was out of line and I'm sorry. However, I don't see why other threads can't be referred to and I just can't accept that making a list of countries notorious for slaying their own citizens is off topic.

Formerly known as A.J.
Rondinaire is offline  
post #18 of 135 (permalink) Old December 14th, 2005, 00:25
First Place winner, June 2010 Photo Contest
Xtratime Legend
 
Boyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05 2000
Posts: 37,190
Blog Entries: 7
That's ok. But what I was expecting was more something like an argument about what you think about this particular case, the subsequent execution and what it's implications are, or might be.

For example. Do you think justice was served? Did the violent nature of his crimes validate the punishment he received? If not, what would have been the alternative. And would justice be served with that alternative? If he didn't get the death penalty, would the family of the people this man savagely killed feel vindicated? Do you feel that the books he wrote should have had been a reason for the sentence to be changed, and if so, why? What do you think about what's been said about that, that he was just writing those books in order to get a lesser sentence? Do you consider that a valid suggestion, or mere speculation.

Something like that is what I would have liked to see you, or someone else argue.

Mercedes bastard & Limburger-loving schmuck
Boyo is offline  
post #19 of 135 (permalink) Old December 14th, 2005, 02:11
International
 
croatian batman's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11 2003
Location: NYC
Teams: Cro NT, NY Islanders, USA NT, Notre Dame
Posts: 5,032
I'm against the death penalty but Tookie Williams is a huge piece of garbage who deserves no sympathy. Not only did he execute 4 people in cold blood while laughing he found the crips one of the most violent gangs in the US. They're responsible for thousands of deaths and have ruined even more lives through drugs, rapes and their overall lack of regard for humanity.

Of course though none of that matters because he wrote a childrens book in which 200 were sold and Jamie Foxx thinks he's great. Great he's Dr. Suess now how wonderful. I guess if Hilter wrote childrens book telling you Nazism is evil we'd all be saying he's a swell guy. I mean he wrote a childrens book and we should let him go?

Thats why the death penalty will never be overturned and why the anti-death penalty people aren't popular. We have to defend scum. And nobody will ever agree with defending scum.

If Tookie really wanted clemency he should've apoligized to the victims but he never did because he was innocent . I guess his children's book was enough of an apology.

Plus the people of California want this. One of the most liberal states around. So its the people's will so don't mess with the people. NK, Iran etc are dictatorship which decide to do things their own way. In the US the people decide the death penalty issue.
croatian batman is offline  
post #20 of 135 (permalink) Old December 14th, 2005, 03:53
Flo
Legend
 
Flo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04 2002
Location: California
Teams: SL Benfica, Liverpool, & AC Milan
Posts: 14,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Johanneson
Of course it had to be Tim, Humbird and Flo that defended one of the increasing number of things that the USA have in common with Iran, Burma, North Korea, China to name but a few. You could have almost predicted it.
You're damn right skippy. And guess what? Not only did he kill 4 innocent people in cold blood but he founded one of the two biggest street gangs in this whole country in the Crips. The Crips have had a history of drugs, rape, murder, and countless other acts of pointless violence. But yeah, let's let him off the hook that way it shows it's worth keeping him alive to be the next Dr. Seuss as opposed to paying for his crime.

What if one of those innocents was your wife, mother, or child? You still going to be singing koom-ba-yah while holding a candlelight vigil the eve of his execution outside the state prison?

I find it funny how these posters think acts like these are atrocious and malicious just like the Sydney riots yet make excuses, steer clear, or downright defend terrorist actions.

Absurd indeed.
Flo is offline  
 

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Xtratime Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive. Try to avoid choosing short (like '1'), simple (like 'abcd') and easy to guess passwords (like a name of your favorite team, player, etc)! Complex and long enough passwords, that consists of random string of alphabet and numerical characters, are almost impossible to be stolen and misused.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome