A Century of Laïcité - Xtratime Community
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old December 9th, 2005, 13:24 Thread Starter
World Class Player
World Class Player
 
Bastin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, the UK
Teams: Arsenal, Watford, UK NTs, and dozens more.
Posts: 7,673
A Century of Laïcité

"The Republic neither recognises, nor salaries, nor subsidises religion". In that sentence, in the 'Law concerning the Separation of Church and State', is summed up the French government's official policy towards religion. Known internationally as 'laïcité', that policy is 100 years old today.

Over the past century, successive French governments have tried to portray hard secularity as being a republican cause, but that is far from the truth. Until the passing of the law, the state funded four established religions, Roman Catholicism, Lutheranism, Calvinism, and Judaism. Even to this day, two parts of France (French Guiana and Alsace-Moselle) are exempt from the law for historical reasons. Given the French approach of uniformity, those exemptions prove that either laïcité is not fundamental, or it isn't being applied properly.

The law, though, does not quite put the four 'traditional' French religions on the same level as other, more recently-established, religions. The 1905 law nationalised all existing church buildings and synagogues, which remain in state hands to this day. This is a subsidy in all but name. Any buildings built more recently are not subsidised in this way, and many thousands of French mosques fall into this category. This seemingly preferential treatment has led to resentment amongst Muslims, inflamed by racial issues, poverty, and more infamous laïcité laws, such as the so-called 'hijab ban'.

If France is really determined to keep its policy of laïcité, it should either return its pre-1905 churches to the respective religious groups, or nationalise mosques (and others) to give them equivalent status. And, whatever it does, it should be enforced across the entire country. If it doesn't do either, the Republic will no longer be able to claim that it neither recognises, nor salaries, nor subsidises religion.

Glen: "That last post of Bastin's is just too authoritative to argue against."

gOD: "It scares the f*ck out of me but I'm with Bastin here."

Cacìni: "Ah, there you go using that absurd über-memory of your's...not fair."

Boyo: "Even when it comes to rap, Bastin is an authority."

Attila_the_Nun: "A most respected scion of Misty Albion, the illustious Bastin - the redoubtable defender of all our noble traditions."

Humbird: "Bastin is very attractive when talking nautical! "
Bastin is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old December 9th, 2005, 15:54
Forum Manager
Legend
 
Fobal klub's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11 2003
Location: Quimper (France)
Teams: Stade Rennais, Latvia.
Posts: 19,797
Yeah come back to pre-1905 and let the Bourbon's successor come back while we are at it.

Actually i would just change slightly the law in order to allow subsidies for the creation of mosque if they can not find funds by themselves. Like Sarkozy has suggested.
Fobal klub is offline  
post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old December 9th, 2005, 16:08 Thread Starter
World Class Player
World Class Player
 
Bastin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, the UK
Teams: Arsenal, Watford, UK NTs, and dozens more.
Posts: 7,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fobal klub
Yeah come back to pre-1905 and let the Bourbon's successor come back while we are at it.
Flippant, perhaps, but that's entirely the point of view that I was trying to capsulate in mentioning the fraudulence of its supposed 'republican' roots. Secularity has nothing to do with being a republic, and the sooner France recovers from that De Gaulle-esque propaganda, the better. Equally, secularity doesn't necessitate government control. It means non-partisanship, and that can include the Catholics running their own churches (shock, horror!).

However, as I say, if France insists on not waking up and smelling the coffee, it could, at least, do as you suggest, and include mosques in the convention. Not only would that eradicate the disparity, which is pernicious in and of itself, but also bring under government oversight those 'maverick' preachers that tell some Muslim youths to reject secular authority, or even to conduct terrorist attacks.

Glen: "That last post of Bastin's is just too authoritative to argue against."

gOD: "It scares the f*ck out of me but I'm with Bastin here."

Cacìni: "Ah, there you go using that absurd über-memory of your's...not fair."

Boyo: "Even when it comes to rap, Bastin is an authority."

Attila_the_Nun: "A most respected scion of Misty Albion, the illustious Bastin - the redoubtable defender of all our noble traditions."

Humbird: "Bastin is very attractive when talking nautical! "
Bastin is offline  
 
post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old December 9th, 2005, 19:09
Legend
Legend
 
Andrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04 2001
Location: Toronto
Teams: Partizan
Posts: 15,157
Quote:
If France is really determined to keep its policy of laïcité, it should either return its pre-1905 churches to the respective religious groups, or nationalise mosques (and others) to give them equivalent status.
While I agree that there is no point in the state owning every corner church, don't think you think that at least some church buildings should remain state property? Like, oh, I dunno, the Notre Dame? Many religious buildings are more than just religious buildings, they are cultural and historical monuments. Such buildings should be subsidised by the state (i.e. restorations etc.) and perhaps even owned by it to ensure they remain cultural and historical monuments. Some are important nationally and should be funded by the state, others may be important only locally and should be left upon the municipalities' budgets. I mean in the RCC is selling off churches in dioceses where there aren't enough congregation members in order to pay off debts. And they are not the only church do it. Here in Toronto some churches are being turned into condos. In Nwfld one church of local historic significance is up for sale since the RCC diocese in question must pay child abuse related payments, luckily those who consider it to be important are coming together to buy it and save it from developers.
Andrix is offline  
post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old December 9th, 2005, 21:21 Thread Starter
World Class Player
World Class Player
 
Bastin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, the UK
Teams: Arsenal, Watford, UK NTs, and dozens more.
Posts: 7,673
Hey, I'm not the one advocating a secular state. I support the idea of the state supporting churches of cultural and historical importance. However, if France wants to pretend to be so vehemently secular, they should be so for real.

I can't sympathise with a few parishioners and local historians in Newfoundland, because the argument of cultural or historical importance doesn't hold for local churches. It's about Westminster Abbey, Notre Dame de Paris, Washington National Cathedral, etc.

Glen: "That last post of Bastin's is just too authoritative to argue against."

gOD: "It scares the f*ck out of me but I'm with Bastin here."

Cacìni: "Ah, there you go using that absurd über-memory of your's...not fair."

Boyo: "Even when it comes to rap, Bastin is an authority."

Attila_the_Nun: "A most respected scion of Misty Albion, the illustious Bastin - the redoubtable defender of all our noble traditions."

Humbird: "Bastin is very attractive when talking nautical! "
Bastin is offline  
post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old December 9th, 2005, 21:36
Legend
Legend
 
Andrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04 2001
Location: Toronto
Teams: Partizan
Posts: 15,157
Well a local church might be important for the local people and the area....but that's why I said the central government (or equivalent) should not be involved there, maybe only the municipality if it so wishes
Andrix is offline  
post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old December 9th, 2005, 22:06 Thread Starter
World Class Player
World Class Player
 
Bastin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, the UK
Teams: Arsenal, Watford, UK NTs, and dozens more.
Posts: 7,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrix
Well a local church might be important for the local people and the area....but that's why I said the central government (or equivalent) should not be involved there, maybe only the municipality if it so wishes
But, then, there's a problem that local government is not responsible enough to intervene in such matters. Were the local authority to decide to support exclusively every RC church, Roman Catholicism would, in effect, become established in that area. If, in the next town over, the town council chooses to support all mosques, the same would happen to Islam.

In France, where local areas are so sharply divided between the various denominations and religions, giving local government discretionary powers to distribute funds to religious groups would be a nightmare for laïcité. Were it just a matter of local government distributing money, it would be their prerogative. However, constitutionally, it's far more important than that. Giving local government that power is not my idea of responsible central government.

Glen: "That last post of Bastin's is just too authoritative to argue against."

gOD: "It scares the f*ck out of me but I'm with Bastin here."

Cacìni: "Ah, there you go using that absurd über-memory of your's...not fair."

Boyo: "Even when it comes to rap, Bastin is an authority."

Attila_the_Nun: "A most respected scion of Misty Albion, the illustious Bastin - the redoubtable defender of all our noble traditions."

Humbird: "Bastin is very attractive when talking nautical! "
Bastin is offline  
 

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Xtratime Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive. Try to avoid choosing short (like '1'), simple (like 'abcd') and easy to guess passwords (like a name of your favorite team, player, etc)! Complex and long enough passwords, that consists of random string of alphabet and numerical characters, are almost impossible to be stolen and misused.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome