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post #1 of 55 (permalink) Old November 24th, 2005, 21:45 Thread Starter
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CO2 'highest for 650,000 years'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4467420.stm

for those who think that global warming is just a general part of the climate cycles....

Quote:
"We find that CO2 is about 30% higher than at any time, and methane 130% higher than at any time; and the rates of increase are absolutely exceptional: for CO2, 200 times faster than at any time in the last 650,000 years."

so who is actually still in denial about global warming?

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post #2 of 55 (permalink) Old November 24th, 2005, 21:58
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Oooops. Now Exxon-Mobil has to pay for more studies that claim global warming doesn't exist.

People who are in denial about global warming are idiots. It's like being in denial of having a flesh-eating disease.
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post #3 of 55 (permalink) Old November 24th, 2005, 23:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lav
so who is actually still in denial about global warming?
I am. Not about global warming itself, but about the reasons for it.

For every study that says global warning is due to something man-made, there's another study that says it isn't.

Is the Earth getting warmer? Yes. Has that happened before? Yes. What's the cause? Could be anything. Might be increased solar activity. Might also be CO2. As long as studies are turning up different results, I don't think we should be too quick in drawing conclusions.

In the meantime, I'm quite enjoying global warning. It's nearly December, and the weather here has been great. Green leaves on most of the trees. Lovely temperatures. Fantastic. Tropical Holland.

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post #4 of 55 (permalink) Old November 24th, 2005, 23:09
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Or tropical Volland as it will be called in a few decades

We can bomb the world to pieces, but we can't bomb it into peace!

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post #5 of 55 (permalink) Old November 24th, 2005, 23:10
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Those that deny the human cause of global warming do not claim that carbon dioxide levels are constant. Rather, they argue that there is no link between carbon dioxide and global warming. Moreover, the more constant and more prevalent anti-interventionist position is that the harm done to the global economy of intervention (Kyoto estimated at $5,000bn) is a counter to both scientific resolution of the energy crisis or investment in alternative energy and fuel sources.

Assuming that there is a link between CO2 and global warming (and, for all intents and purposes, that's not much of an assumption), the apparatus that we have in place to combat the problem is ill-suited. China is the world's #1 polluter by economic output, emitting more than the whole of the EU25. Yet, it's not affected by Kyoto requirements. We need to replace Kyoto with a relevant document that would be forced upon every country, including both 'developing' signatories and developed present non-signatories.

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post #6 of 55 (permalink) Old November 24th, 2005, 23:18
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Quote:
there's another study that says it isn't.
And that other study is most likely paid by someone like Exxon-Mobil, making it in effect nothing but propaganda. I have a feeling some people are in denial about global warming just because the people who talk about global warming and want something done about it are on the opposite side of the ideological spectrum from them.


http://democrats.reform.house.gov/fe...al_warming.htm
http://www.environmentaldefense.org/...contentID=3804


On the other hand, studies suggesting that global warming is most likely due to human action have the backing of the world's top scientists and institutions such as the National Academy of Sciences in the US.

Don't be fooled. Just because fossil fuel companies pour money into parties you might support or sympathise with in order to stall action on global warming doesn't mean global warming does not exist.

Quote:
In the meantime, I'm quite enjoying global warning.
As far as I remember, global warming (if left unchecked) will eventually make weather in northern Europe quite miserable. Something about rain all the time, and lots of it.

Btw Kyoto is peanuts, I agree. Unfortunately rather than focus on getting a workable agreement there people arguing about how everything is fine and dandy...c'mon you can't dump tons and tons of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and not affect something.
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post #7 of 55 (permalink) Old November 24th, 2005, 23:54 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastin
We need to replace Kyoto with a relevant document that would be forced upon every country, including both 'developing' signatories and developed present non-signatories.
Agree

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post #8 of 55 (permalink) Old November 24th, 2005, 23:56 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyo
I am. Not about global warming itself, but about the reasons for it.

For every study that says global warning is due to something man-made, there's another study that says it isn't.

Is the Earth getting warmer? Yes. Has that happened before? Yes. What's the cause? Could be anything. Might be increased solar activity. Might also be CO2. As long as studies are turning up different results, I don't think we should be too quick in drawing conclusions.

In the meantime, I'm quite enjoying global warning. It's nearly December, and the weather here has been great. Green leaves on most of the trees. Lovely temperatures. Fantastic. Tropical Holland.

wow boyo :eekani:

The cause quite clearly is us...and our help to global warming....i mean its preety obvious that we are helping the earth warm at an alarming rate....how can you possibly try to deny this?

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post #9 of 55 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2005, 06:17
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Global warming
First they said There is nothing called global warming.
then they said Global warming is ludicrious.
then they said It is overhyped.
then they said It is there but it is there for good since we can watch all the four seasons there, spend our summer here, and spend our winter there ...
then they said It isn't there for good, but we cant do anything since it is out of our hands.

and here we are now.


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post #10 of 55 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2005, 08:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gOD
Or tropical Volland as it will be called in a few decades
Hmmm... Volland, that sounds like an anti-immigration slogan.

Are you thinking about running in the next elections here.

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post #11 of 55 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2005, 08:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrix
And that other study is most likely paid by someone like Exxon-Mobil, making it in effect nothing but propaganda.
I don't know. I'll have to look into that. But then probably the same thing can be said about the people behind those other studies.

Quote:
On the other hand, studies suggesting that global warming is most likely due to human action have the backing of the world's top scientists and institutions such as the National Academy of Sciences in the US.
Just as there are the world's top scientists backing studies that claim the oppostite.

Quote:
Don't be fooled. Just because fossil fuel companies pour money into parties you might support or sympathise with in order to stall action on global warming doesn't mean global warming does not exist.
I don't support any party anymore. And I don't deny global warning exists, far from it. But as global warning has happened before in Earth's history, I'm not so quick to believe it's due to human causes. And also I'm not ready to believe certain studies, as long as different studies into the same subject claim otherwise.

Quote:
As far as I remember, global warming (if left unchecked) will eventually make weather in northern Europe quite miserable. Something about rain all the time, and lots of it.
By that time I'll obviously have left for some place with nicer weather.

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Last edited by Boyo; November 25th, 2005 at 10:01.
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post #12 of 55 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2005, 08:44
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Quote:
The cause quite clearly is us...and our help to global warming....i mean its preety obvious that we are helping the earth warm at an alarming rate....
No, I don't think that's clear or obvious at all.

Quote:
how can you possibly try to deny this?
Because I can.

Seriously, I'm just not convinced.

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post #13 of 55 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2005, 10:19
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Link between C02 and global warming.
As amount of C02 in the atmosphere increases, it forms an invisble form of cloud on the earth's atmosphere, which results in green house effect. I hope u guys know what exactly is green house effect. So dont argue that there isn't any connection between global warming and C02. It is not the temperature of C02 but the green house effect caused by C02 cloud which is causing global warming. The argument was whether it is overhyped or not. Sure there are people who makes a hell out of nothing. It may be overhyped but still it is a danger.


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post #14 of 55 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2005, 10:28
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Experts can't even predict what weather it's going to be tomorrow, but somehow we are to believe that they are able to forecast the weather a century from now.

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post #15 of 55 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2005, 10:36
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i saw a report on tv the other day that said that we're about to hit "peak oil", basically the point where supply of oil will start shrinking, so if supply drops and demand stays constant, prices will go throw the roof, and since one of the biggest contributor to air pollution is transportation and almost all transportation run on petrol, if people can't afford to use their cars or don't have fuel to run it, than shouldn't there be like a drastic drop in air pollution resulting in a slow reversal of global warming

or is that just wishful thinking?

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post #16 of 55 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2005, 10:44
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Here's an interesting article on the matter:

----------

Almost as soon as the Kyoto Protocol on global warming came into effect on February 15, Kashmir suffered the highest snowfall in three decades with over 150 killed, and Mumbai recorded the lowest temperature in 40 years. Had temperatures been the highest for decades, newspapers would have declared this was proof of global warming. But whenever temperatures drop, the press keeps quiet.

Things were different in 1940-70, when there was global cooling. Every cold winter then was hailed as proof of a coming new Ice Age. But the moment cooling was replaced by warming, a new disaster in the opposite direction was proclaimed.

A recent Washington Post article gave this scientist's quote from 1972. "We simply cannot afford to gamble. We cannot risk inaction. The scientists who disagree are acting irresponsibly. The indications that our climate can soon change for the worse are too strong to be reasonably ignored." The warning was not about global warming (which was not happening): it was about global cooling!

In the media, disaster is news, and its absence is not. This principle has been exploited so skillfully by ecological scare-mongers that it is now regarded as politically incorrect, even unscientific, to denounce global warming hysteria as unproven speculation.

Meteorologists are a standing joke for getting predictions wrong even a few days ahead. The same jokers are being taken seriously when they use computer models to predict the weather 100 years hence.

The models have not been tested for reliability over 100 years, or even 20 years. Different models yield variations in warming of 400%, which means they are statistically meaningless.

Wassily Leontief, Nobel prize winner for modeling, said this about the limits of models. "We move from more or less plausible but really arbitrary assumptions, to elegantly demonstrated but irrelevant conclusions." Exactly. Assume continued warming as in the last three decades, and you get a warming disaster. Assume more episodes of global cooling, and you get a cooling disaster.

In his latest best seller State of Fear, Michael Crichton does a devastating expose of the way ecological groups have tweaked data and facts to create mass hysteria. He points out that we know astonishingly little about the environment. All sides make exaggerated claims.

We know that atmospheric carbon is increasing. We are also in the midst of a natural warming trend that started in 1850 at the end of what is called the Little Ice Age. It is scientifically impossible to prove whether the subsequent warming is natural or man-made.

Greens say, rightly, that the best scientific assessment today is that global warming is occurring. Yet never in history have scientists accurately predicted what will happen 100 years later. A century ago no scientists predicted the internet, microwave ovens, TV, nuclear explosions or antibiotics. It is impossible, even stupid, to predict the distant future.

That scientific truth is rarely mentioned. Why? Because the global warming movement has now become a multi-billion dollar enterprise with thousands of jobs and millions in funding for NGOs and think-tanks, top jobs and prizes for scientists, and huge media coverage for predictions of disaster.

The vested interests in the global warming theory are now as strong, rich and politically influential as the biggest multinationals. It is no co-incidence, says Crichton, that so many scientists sceptical of global warming are retired professors: they have no need to chase research grants and chairs.

I have long been an agnostic on global warming: the evidence is ambiguous. But I almost became a convert when Greenpeace publicised photos showing the disastrously rapid retreat of the Upsala Glacier in Argentina. How disastrous, I thought, if this was the coming fate of all glaciers.

Then last Christmas, I went on vacation to Lake Argentina. The Upsala glacier and six other glaciers descend from the South Andean icefield into the lake. I was astounded to discover that while the Upsala glacier had retreated rapidly, the other glaciers showed little movement, and one had advanced across the lake into the Magellan peninsula. If in the same area some glaciers advance and others retreat, the cause is clearly not global warming but local micro-conditions.

Yet the Greenpeace photos gave the impression that glaciers in general were in rapid retreat. It was a con job, a dishonest effort to mislead. From the same icefield, another major glacier spilling into Chile has grown 60% in volume.

Greenpeace and other ecological groups have well-intentioned people with high ideals. But as crusaders they want to win by any means, honest or not. I do not like being taken for a ride, by idealists or anyone else.

We need impartial research, funded neither by MNCs, governmental groups or NGOs with private agendas. And the media needs to stop highlighting disaster scares and ignoring exposes of the scares.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...ow/1034077.cms

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post #17 of 55 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2005, 11:09
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See.. global warming is not WWIII. But it is not something which we can afford to ignore.
And always prevention is better than cure.


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post #18 of 55 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2005, 11:38
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And it is not just global warming. The overall climatic change is alarming. So drop in temperature and over snow falling is also alarming.
And timesofindia is the fox network of india. (in ideology and views).


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post #19 of 55 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2005, 11:59
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How can you ask China or India and other emerging economies to cut back on CO2 emissions? How can you force them? Simple! You can not. Did you know that water vapour or steam are the biggest cause of global warming? Theres far more of that than CO2 and both are greenhouse gasses. Did you know that the big rise in temperatures since the 1970's have coincided with much increased activity by the Sun? The Sun will continue getting hotter for another 30 years plus. Human activity probably does contribute a little to the greenhouse effect. Volcanic activity on the Earth is at its least active. This produced most of the CO2 emmisions in the past. About as much as 10,000 coal power stations in a year per volcano. Money would be better spent at adapting to Global Warming than preventing it. Build better flood defences, make sure there is a an adequate water supply etc. Apparently one of the results of an advanced global warming is the deserts will become wetter. Good news for some then.
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post #20 of 55 (permalink) Old November 25th, 2005, 12:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewcryne
How can you ask China or India and other emerging economies to cut back on CO2 emissions? How can you force them? Simple! You can not. Did you know that water vapour or steam are the biggest cause of global warming? Theres far more of that than CO2 and both are greenhouse gasses. Did you know that the big rise in temperatures since the 1970's have coincided with much increased activity by the Sun? The Sun will continue getting hotter for another 30 years plus. Human activity probably does contribute a little to the greenhouse effect. Volcanic activity on the Earth is at its least active. This produced most of the CO2 emmisions in the past. About as much as 10,000 coal power stations in a year per volcano. Money would be better spent at adapting to Global Warming than preventing it. Build better flood defences, make sure there is a an adequate water supply etc. Apparently one of the results of an advanced global warming is the deserts will become wetter. Good news for some then.
It is not just about india and china. It is about the whole world. And india and china has agreed to sign up kyoto aslong as others adhers to it . It is Bush who is opposed to kyoto protocol. It will be silly to think that we can spend money wisely and prevent natural calamities, because nature is simply un predictable. See what happened in US (most powerful country apparently) during catrina . We cannot stop volcanoes from erupting (may be we can in the future if the technology evolves), but still we can restrict industries (not stop, but restrict by bringing in some rules) in the amount of green house gases they are sending out, because that is something we can do. and please... steam will not cause green house effect.


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