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post #1 of 110 (permalink) Old November 21st, 2005, 07:04 Thread Starter
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Sharon leaves Likud

Among other issues, word is that Sharon is unhappy with the rest of Likud's attitude toward the peace process. I guess it might be more appropriate to say they're unhappy with him since his decision to pull out of Gaza went against a long time policy with the building of settlements and all. The Labour party voted to withdraw from the coalition which is what brought this on.

The Gaza debate will obviously be an issue in the election and it could end up deciding the course of the (near) future for the peace process.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories
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post #2 of 110 (permalink) Old November 21st, 2005, 13:41
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Sharon's premiership will go down in Israeli-Arab relationships as one of the most successful.

He took over and everyone thought this si a disaster. Yet he tackled two issues head on;
The Jewish right including the settlers
The Palestinian intifada.

He realised that Israel's security will come about through the disengagement from Gaza and the West Bank. The first he succeeded, the second is a long slow process.

He tackled Hamas and Islamic Jihad head on with a policy of destroying its leaders. I nthe long run even the Palestinians will realise this was required in order for them to flourish politically.

The security fence was also required to stop the suicide bombers. Where he has made a mistake is not routing the fence along the 1967 armistice line.

Only former military men or men of the right can deliver peace in Israel.

Sharon will be back as premier, but as a leader of a centre right party not a Likud that will lose its way over the forthcoming years.
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post #3 of 110 (permalink) Old November 21st, 2005, 14:55
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Originally Posted by panicos
Only former military men or men of the right can deliver peace in Israel.
I assume that you mean "men formerly of the right", otherwise that would sound like an endorsement for Likud under Netanyahu.

Given that most forum members don't have any insight from within Israel, it would be easy to neglect the real reason for Labour's withdrawal from the coalition, hence, by extension, Sharon's resignation from Likud: Domestic economic policy. Sharon's premiership has been an economic disaster, compared to happier times in the late 90s. I wonder who was PM back then...

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post #4 of 110 (permalink) Old November 22nd, 2005, 20:03
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Fresh pics, yesterday in South Lebanon.



Don't lament the treachery of time;
long have dogs danced over the carcasses of lions.

Don't suppose that their dancing raises them above their masters;
for dogs remain dogs, and lions remain lions.

Insult me as you wish;
For my silence to the depraved is a response.

It's not that I have no response, but;
A lion does not reply to a dog.

Last edited by Natalya; November 26th, 2005 at 23:48.
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post #5 of 110 (permalink) Old November 22nd, 2005, 21:51
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If you'd bothered to read the article from which you've taken two of those pictures, you'd know that they were from northern Israel. You'd also know that they were taken as a consequence of a terrorist artillery attack on an Israeli army outpost.

Israel has a right to defend itself from Islamist terrorists. If the Lebanese government continues to support a group dedicated to the ethnic cleansing of Israel, those "Zionist f*ckers" have a right to defend themselves.

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post #6 of 110 (permalink) Old November 23rd, 2005, 04:56
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Originally Posted by Rhizoid





Fresh pics, yesterday in South Lebanon.




Keep it up you Zionist f*ckers, we will prevail.
And to think those "Zionist f*ckers" didn't responded to the Hezbollah, so Lebanon could have a quiet independence day...

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post #7 of 110 (permalink) Old November 23rd, 2005, 06:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastin
If you'd bothered to read the article from which you've taken two of those pictures, you'd know that they were from northern Israel. You'd also know that they were taken as a consequence of a terrorist artillery attack on an Israeli army outpost.

Israel has a right to defend itself from Islamist terrorists. If the Lebanese government continues to support a group dedicated to the ethnic cleansing of Israel, those "Zionist f*ckers" have a right to defend themselves.
Islamist terrorists, funny choice of words. As far as I'm concerned, they contributed highly (if not entirely) to the freedom of Southern Lebanon.

1996 Qana Massacre, Khiam prison, 20 year occupation of south Lebanon, the destruction of Beirut in 1982...and many other atrocities the Zionist regime can be proud of. Not to mention that their war planes are continuously violating our airspace for apparently no reason.

Anyway, carry on discussing the resignation of that other terrorist...

Don't lament the treachery of time;
long have dogs danced over the carcasses of lions.

Don't suppose that their dancing raises them above their masters;
for dogs remain dogs, and lions remain lions.

Insult me as you wish;
For my silence to the depraved is a response.

It's not that I have no response, but;
A lion does not reply to a dog.
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post #8 of 110 (permalink) Old November 23rd, 2005, 11:21
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Originally Posted by Bastin
I assume that you mean "men formerly of the right", otherwise that would sound like an endorsement for Likud under Netanyahu.
I was in fact referring to Menachin Begin, who though a former Stern Group commander, I do not believe was a military commander, yet hewas the first PM to withdraw from occupied land, something that a Shimon Peres would never have been able to do and make the country believe it was the correct thing to do.

The economic conditions in Israel are dire. There are people living in poverty and soup kitchens everywhere. This is an indirect result of the intifada and the curtailment of tourism.

Pre intifada days, more tourists vistied Israel from Cyprus than anywhere else (mostly to visit the Holy Sites), this tried has ground to zero.

The problem with the Isreali economy is balance social affairs and military spend.
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post #9 of 110 (permalink) Old November 23rd, 2005, 11:56
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A possible contender for the next nobel peace prize.


All the drugs in this world won't save you from yourself.
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post #10 of 110 (permalink) Old November 23rd, 2005, 13:51
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If Arafat can receive it why not?
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post #11 of 110 (permalink) Old November 23rd, 2005, 14:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panicos
I was in fact referring to Menachin Begin, who though a former Stern Group commander, I do not believe was a military commander, yet hewas the first PM to withdraw from occupied land, something that a Shimon Peres would never have been able to do and make the country believe it was the correct thing to do.
I disagree. Peres would have leapt at the chance of peace with Egypt at such a low cost to Israel, and, unlike Oslo or the Road Map, Camp David was not a particularly hard sale to the Israeli people. The vast majority of Israelis were ecstatic that the only major Arab military power was recognising Israel, relinquishing claims to Gaza, allowing Israel access through the Suez Canal, and keeping much of Sinai demilitarised. To infer anything from the failure of Peres (or, more dramatically, Rabin) after Oslo, or to apply any later lessons to Camp David, would be wrong.

It does raise the legitimate question, though, of whether Peres could have extracted those concessions in the first place. By all accounts, Begin was a far tougher negotiator than Peres was. Could Peres have persuaded the Israeli public to accept the result of his hypothetical negotiations? You may have a case there, but I don't think that the actual PR exercise itself would have gone any differently with Peres at the helm.

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post #12 of 110 (permalink) Old November 23rd, 2005, 17:18
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Barak convinced the Israeli nation that withdrawal from southern Lebanon was just based on his military backgound, Peres though would have failed to convince the nation, even though the occupation of southern Lebanon was a burden.

Sharon pulled off the Gaza couop, but Peres or the new Labour leader would not be able to pull this off .

Don't get me wrong Peres is a very intelligent politician and is no fool when it comes to negotiations, but whne a nation has been in a state of war for 56 years, decisions on national security are only convincing if they come from an army background or someone who has the "nationalist" vote. This is the same in most countries and the reasn why peace is illusive in most international disputes.
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post #13 of 110 (permalink) Old November 26th, 2005, 23:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhizoid





Fresh pics, yesterday in South Lebanon.





We go on and on about proper posting and the like. Croats get pointed out for using bad remarks, the whole board gets a racism warning, many people from 'Balkan' boards are a potential target for banning and this gets allowed?

If this isn't hypocracy I don't know what is.

Give me a break and delete this.

Cheersch

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PS. Iako si najavio ne moraš dolaziti u Hercegovinu, ovamo nisi dobodošao. Sasvim sigurno su ti otvorena vrata onih koji su skupa sa tobom radili na zabrani utakmice, i otvorena su ti vrata njihovog grada gdje se pale i brane hrvatske zastave.

Last edited by Natalya; November 26th, 2005 at 23:50.
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post #14 of 110 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2005, 03:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastin
I assume that you mean "men formerly of the right", otherwise that would sound like an endorsement for Likud under Netanyahu.
Bastin, sometimes I dont get you.

Are you trying to be outragous on purpose?? Some people say Sharon is a war criminal but Netanyahu is 10x worse. Why is he such a star in your opinion??
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post #15 of 110 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2005, 13:32
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Originally Posted by 2Pac
Are you trying to be outragous on purpose?? Some people say Sharon is a war criminal but Netanyahu is 10x worse. Why is he such a star in your opinion??
Ariel Sharon is (incorrectly) called a war criminal in reference to his time in the armed forces. Netanyahu has never served in the armed forces. Effectively, the scale on which you consider Netanyahu to be worse is by being a more consistent leader.

Netanyahu refuses to let the Israeli government bend over backwards for the Palestinians, offering to negotiate, but demanding fair return in exchange for demilitarisation. If they give, they'll get. If they don't give, they won't get. Believe it or not, that consistent rational approach, rather than that of Oslo or unilateral withdrawal, works; in the three years of Netanyahu's government, the number of terrorist attacks on Israel plummeted.

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post #16 of 110 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2005, 14:41
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How do you feel about Netanyahu's policy of settlement expansion into the W. Bank and Gaza? Is that an acceptable policy and conducive to a 2 state solution or do you think Palestine should all become Israel?

And we'll agree to disagree about Sharon's actions in the IDF - standing looking over Sabra and Chatila in Lebanon this summer, I had very different ideas about him.

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of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
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I'll meet you there.
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post #17 of 110 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2005, 14:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastin

Netanyahu refuses to let the Israeli government bend over backwards for the Palestinians, offering to negotiate, but demanding fair return in exchange for demilitarisation. If they give, they'll get. If they don't give, they won't get. Believe it or not, that consistent rational approach, rather than that of Oslo or unilateral withdrawal, works; in the three years of Netanyahu's government, the number of terrorist attacks on Israel plummeted.
All I see is language, one side (Israel) has control of the language used to describe events.

Who is the aggressor here?? Did some Palestinians get on a plane and decided to take over a country?? They are boxed in THIER land, sealed off from the outside world.

Dont have the audacity to compare kids throwing stones, and a couple of suicide bombers to a nation that has the 2nd best armed forces in the world, while receiving all the latest military technology.

I want see some stats comparing Israeli deaths and Palestinian and lets see which side killed more people, Israel also invaded Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt, no other Arab country EVER attacked Israel until 1973.

Bastin, I would love to see your reaction if Britain was invaded and you decided you were not going to collaborate, for others around the world who dont even understand what is going on, to describe you as terrorist and say that the invader has bent over backward to accommodate you.

I only wrote this post, because I don’t believe you are ignorant or unintelligent, I know you are smart enough to seek the truth, and stop letting the media influence how you see events.

Do you think those guys that use their body as weapons do it for a dare?? Or maybe is a joke between friends. No, they see it as the only solution, somehow Israel looks at the actual fact of the carnage, not the root causes behind it.

The Jews were supposed to flee Hitler’s oppression, so how comes they are oppressing people and kicking them out of their land making them refugees. I see a repeat of what Hitler was up in the inter-war years, and we are turning a blind eye for almost 50 years.

I don’t think anyone saw a Palestinian complaining or any issue related to them until 1948, somehow the way language is used it seems those Palestinians were like this since the beginning of time :rollani:

Be objective and have empathy with both sides, I know Israelis dont want to live with the constant fear of suicide bombers, they know the solution, they just need to get cracking and make a deal.

Arafat is not around this time, there is no excuse
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post #18 of 110 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2005, 15:34
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Originally Posted by Natalya
How do you feel about Netanyahu's policy of settlement expansion into the W. Bank and Gaza? Is that an acceptable policy and conducive to a 2 state solution or do you think Palestine should all become Israel?
We both know what I would do. The only reason you want me to re-explain it here is that you wish to stigmatise Benjamin Netanyahu by virtue of stigmatising me.
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Originally Posted by Natalya
And we'll agree to disagree about Sharon's actions in the IDF - standing looking over Sabra and Chatila in Lebanon this summer, I had very different ideas about him.
He was found to be only indirectly responsible. That does not make him a war criminal. Any claims to the contrary are libellous.
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Originally Posted by 2Pac
Who is the aggressor here?? Did some Palestinians get on a plane and decided to take over a country??
The Arabs are the aggressors. They attacked Israel during the Israeli War of Independence, attacked Israel in the lead-up to the Suez Crisis, attacked Israel in the lead-up to the Six-Day War, attacked Israel during the War of 1970, attacked Israel during the Yom Kippur War, and attacked Israel during the Lebanese Civil War. Only two Arab countries have actually signed a peace treaty with Israel, and neither of those treaties demanded that Israel withdraw from either Gaza or Judea and Samaria. Until every Arab state recognises Israel (not necessarily peace: just recognition), Israel shouldn't take a single step backwards.
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Dont have the audacity to compare kids throwing stones, and a couple of suicide bombers to a nation that has the 2nd best armed forces in the world, while receiving all the latest military technology.
We're talking about Israel being attacked by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Iraq.

And I'd love to hear how Israel has the 2nd best armed forces in the world. Almost everyone in the field of military analysis is agreed that those belong to either the United Kingdom, France, or China. Israel, by comparison, has armed forces one-half the size of Syria's and one-third the size of Egypt's. Those ratios would have made even worse reading for Israel during the Israeli War of Independence.
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Originally Posted by 2Pac
Israel also invaded Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt, no other Arab country EVER attacked Israel until 1973.
BWAH!
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Originally Posted by 2Pac
Bastin, I would love to see your reaction if Britain was invaded and you decided you were not going to collaborate, for others around the world who dont even understand what is going on, to describe you as terrorist and say that the invader has bent over backward to accommodate you.
Say NATO attacked the Republic of Ireland. Say the Republic of Ireland, resisted invasion, conquered Northern Ireland, and held on to it. Would they have a right to take, say, County Fermanagh? Of course. Not even I would disagree with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Pac
The Jews were supposed to flee Hitler’s oppression, so how comes they are oppressing people and kicking them out of their land making them refugees. I see a repeat of what Hitler was up in the inter-war years, and we are turning a blind eye for almost 50 years.
You sicken me.

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Last edited by Bastin; November 27th, 2005 at 15:43.
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post #19 of 110 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2005, 15:48
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You sicken me.
Mate clearly you have a selective view of history. The Nazi - zionoism comparession is not my words but from an anti-zionist jew And I agree with him.

What is different from what Israel is doing?? Maybe they are not gassing people, BUT they are still kiling women and Children, and somehow the state should never stoop to the level of non-state actors.

And Israel might not have the largest army, but they are one of the best trained in the world.
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post #20 of 110 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2005, 16:06
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Mate clearly you have a selective view of history.
Unlike you, I suppose, who chooses to 'forget' the several wars that the Arabs have waged to exterminate the Jewish race. Remember that the Jews ACCEPTED the original UN plan for the partition of the Mandate Territory, but the Arabs REJECTED it. The Arabs refused to recognise any sort of Jewish homeland, and sought to "push the Jews into the sea". You were saying about a selective view of history?
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What is different from what Israel is doing?? Maybe they are not gassing people, BUT they are still kiling women and Children, and somehow the state should never stoop to the level of non-state actors.
You just answered your own question. Israel doesn't gas people, and it doesn't commit genocide. The Nazis committed genocide. It was the Arabs that tried to commit genocide in the Middle East. People that draw the Nazi-Israel parallel are usually anti-Semites that are ignorant of, or refuse to recognise, the extent of the Holocaust or the efforts of the Arab states to start where Hitler left off. Whether that statement was made by a Jew or a Gentile, it's completely out of line.
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Originally Posted by 2Pac
And Israel might not have the largest army, but they are one of the best trained in the world.
The majority of Israeli service personnel are conscripts. As a result, they're not the best trained. However, the IDF is amongst the most dedicated, most integrated, best equipped, and best led armed forces in the world. Nonetheless, Israel was attacked by five countries, each of which with armed forces and populations considerably larger than Israel's.

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