Thatcher would have avoided Iraq fiasco - Xtratime Community
 
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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old November 13th, 2005, 10:23 Thread Starter
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Thatcher would have avoided Iraq fiasco

And it's not just my opinion, honest! It's actually the belief of the man most likely to know: British Ambassador to the United States at the time, Sir Christopher Meyer. Last week, the UK's representative in Washington from 1997 until 2003 began the dual serialisation of his memoirs, DC Confidential. Whilst it clears Blair of many accusations levelled at him (agreeing to a war in early 2002, being Bush's poodle, etc), there's one part that makes for great reading for Conservatives.

In the book, Meyer reports that Blair rushed through diplomatic agreement with the White House, not fully extracted enough concessions in return for crucial British involvement, and not allowing a large enough planning window. Going into the negotiations on provisional British military involvement, through late 2002, the Cabinet Office had a list of requirements, including, but not limited to: the conclusion of weapons inspection, the concoction of new conclusion plans, trying for a 2nd UNSC resolution, putting in place arrangements to prevent looting. Our man in America has now told the world that Blair scuppered all of those plans.

Apparently, Blair is the worst negotiator that Meyer had ever had the misfortune to have to represent. Contrasting Blair's abilities to Baroness Thatcher, Meyer concludes that the more hard-headed Iron Lady would have allowed the British embassy in DC to achieve all of their aims. In his opinion, a short delay, of two or three months, would have avoided most of the catastrophes that have followed, whilst still achieving all of the good.

Meyer is only the latest in a long line of diplomats that have slammed Blair's incompetence, and it may put clear blue water between the government and the Conservatives. The implication is that Conservative MPs agreed to the war because they thought that Blair would let the embassy do its job. Just as is everyone else's, their faith in the validity of comparison of Baroness Thatcher to her pale imitation was woefully misplaced, and that's why post-war Iraq is in the terrible state in which it finds itself now: Nobody appreciates how great Thatcher was.

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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old November 13th, 2005, 11:47
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Yeah, she'd never have gone to war. She'd have focused on brutalising miners instead.
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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old November 13th, 2005, 14:00
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Originally Posted by Bastin
Nobody appreciates how great Thatcher was.
That's not quite true. Tony Blair, for example, worships her.
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old November 13th, 2005, 22:03 Thread Starter
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Yeah, she'd never have gone to war. She'd have focused on brutalising miners instead.
If they broke the law, attacked those that didn't, and fought with the police, maybe she would have found enough men to give them a good kicking, too.
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Originally Posted by Attila_the_Nun
That's not quite true. Tony Blair, for example, worships her.
Blair hates Thatcher, but he just loves it when the middle classes become confused (as they do) and think that he's even remotely similar. It's a sure-fire vote-winner.

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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old November 13th, 2005, 22:09
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Originally Posted by Bastin
Blair hates Thatcher, but he just loves it when the middle classes become confused (as they do) and think that he's even remotely similar. It's a sure-fire vote-winner.
I doubt if anyone thinks the ultimate wimp is similar to the Iron Lady, but he has asked for her advice and certainly admires her.
And Murdoch has probably ordered Blair to adore her.
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old November 13th, 2005, 22:37
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Bastin is reading The Guardian! :eekani:

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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old November 13th, 2005, 22:59 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Purger
I have been wondering,why doesn't somebody just shot blair?Has any english prime minister been killed in history?
England never had a Prime Minister. Semantics aside, the United Kingdom has had one PM to be assassinated: Spencer Perceval, in 1812. Thatcher was almost murdered when the IRA detonated a bomb in her hotel room.
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Ashamedly, I have, but that's entirely justified. If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles. Sun Tzu.
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Originally Posted by Attila_the_Nun
I doubt if anyone thinks the ultimate wimp is similar to the Iron Lady, but he has asked for her advice and certainly admires her.
Dependence and admiration, perhaps, but that doesn't count out hatred. Most historical figures (if that's what Thatcher has become for Blair) are admired by their foes, as well as by their friends.

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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old November 14th, 2005, 00:47
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Bastin: Blair is Thatcher II you will use the size of the state to show that Blair is not Thatcher, but actually Brown is responsible for that

What has Thatcher done for the United Kingdom?

Cut Taxes

Cut Services

Let public services rot

Sell Council houses

Break down society

Destroy industry like mining

Start a uselss war in Falklands

Handbag a few people

The Poll tax

Made a few Yuppies rich

Sign up to Maastricht


If Maggie was so great the Conservative MP's would not have removed her, but she was always a little dictator, only took people a long time to realise it, just like Tony Blair


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THATCHER'S HAIRSTYLE MAJOR'S GLASSES THE SAME OLD TORY..

4 May 2005

Kevin Maguire

I STILL feel angry when I recall waking up 26 years ago this very morning to the nightmare of Tory rule. Margaret Thatcher was on the steps of Downing Street, quoting St Francis of Assisi and mouthing words of harmony as she prepared to unleash class war.

Jim Callaghan's socially progressive, if somewhat ramshackle, Labour administration had been replaced by a Thatcher regime red in tooth and claw.

The 1979 General Election was the first I was old enough to vote in and the last occasion on which a Labour Government was defeated.


We all had to wait 18 long years until 1997 before the party was back in power...and what a miserable period of Conservative reign.

During the long winter of Tory domination the heart was ripped out of communities, with millions of despairing workers dumped on the scrap heap.

Unemployment topped three million, not once but twice, and inner cities became no-go areas, deprived of hope and investment in decent homes, schools and hospitals.

School leavers put down books to pick up a UB40 and a life on the dole or a future flipping burgers they could barely afford themselves.

The elderly struggled to survive on the breadline after one of the Iron Lady's first and most brutal acts was to scrap the link between pensions and earnings.

Not everyone did badly, how-ever, during an era in which the Conservatives championed greed as good.

Thatcher's friends in the City and big business filled their boots as never before, oblivious to the underclass swelling beneath their well-shod feet.

When Thatcher triumphantly declared there was no such thing as society, she was partly right.

She had succeeding in dividing Britain into two nations.

ONE was the small, comfortable, cosy world of her fanatical right-wing supporters. The other a much harsher, less caring country where the rest of us were forced to live
This is the reality of Mrs Thatcher :thmbdown:
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old November 14th, 2005, 02:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Pac
Bastin: Blair is Thatcher II you will use the size of the state to show that Blair is not Thatcher, but actually Brown is responsible for that
I agree with some of your post, especially about the idiotic Poll Tax, but...

Cut Taxes New Labour has increased our tax burden with 'stealth' (coward's) taxes

Sell Council houses Best thing a UK politician has done since WW2

Break down society No such thing as 'society'!

Start a uselss war in Falklands? Nope. Galtieri. We just finished it

Handbag a few people She famously had to tell G Bush Snr to 'stop wobbling' about the War to eject Saddam from Kuwait

Made a few Yuppies rich? They made themselves rich.

Sign up to Maastricht? John Major, against the wishes of the Iron Lady, I believe.
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old November 14th, 2005, 03:00
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Originally Posted by Attila_the_Nun
I agree with some of your post, especially about the idiotic Poll Tax
Cut Taxes New Labour has increased our tax burden with 'stealth' (coward's) taxes -- True

Sell Council houses Best thing a UK politician has done since WW2 -- why??

Break down society No such thing as 'society'! Do you agree with her??

Handbag a few people She famously had to tell G Bush Snr to 'stop wobbling' about the War to eject Saddam from Kuwait -- She was not in power, and hey Bush sr was clever to avoid this mess

Made a few Yuppies rich? They made themselves rich -- By buying up state property for cheap, no paying tax relative to what they were making like you and I

Sign up to Maastricht? John Major, against the wishes of the Iron Lady, I believe -- My bad, what was it she negotiated I cant remember


But one thing most people agree on is that underfunding of public services from her years is what we are now paying for. And that most inner-city areas was FCKUED until New Labour came in
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old November 14th, 2005, 03:05
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Originally Posted by 2Pac
Sell Council houses Best thing a UK politician has done since WW2 -- why??
Because it gave poorer people the chance to buy their homes and made them better off, and it improved a lot of 'sink' estates.
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Break down society No such thing as 'society'! Do you agree with her??
It's a bit abstract, in a country of 60,000,000. I groan whenever a politician says the word - though it's not as bad as 'community'
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Originally Posted by 2Pac
Made a few Yuppies rich? They made themselves rich -- By buying up state property for cheap, no paying tax relative to what they were making like you and I
Sorry, agreed. When Maggie did a Yeltsin before Yeltsin. I think of Yuppies as city-types who exist on bonuses and stuff half of Colombia's finest export up their noses to cope with the pressure, I didn't realise you meant the utility sell-offs.
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old November 14th, 2005, 16:40
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Originally Posted by Attila_the_Nun
Sorry, agreed. When Maggie did a Yeltsin before Yeltsin. I think of Yuppies as city-types who exist on bonuses and stuff half of Colombia's finest export up their noses to cope with the pressure, I didn't realise you meant the utility sell-offs.
I hate them :frustrat: the Roman types only because I was not around to share the booty :depress:
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old November 14th, 2005, 16:41 Thread Starter
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Sorry, but you're simply wrong on so many fronts.

1. Thatcher is widely misquoted regarding the term "society". Thatcher was responding to a claim that deliberately remaining unemployed didn't hurt anyone directly, as the victim was the amorphous "society". Obviously, that's nonsense. The victims were taxpayers, and Thatcher was right.

2. Thatcher did not "do a Yeltsin". That's a ridiculous misinterpretation. Whereas the Russian Federation sold its assets as private organisations, privatised British companies were floated on the stock market, free for anyone to buy. Whereas Yeltsin raised peanuts by selling way below market price, British shares were sold at market prices, established by the stock market. Whereas Yeltsin concentrated power in the hands of a few, privatisation of British companies increased the number of shareholders in the UK several times over.

The floatation of BT was (then) the largest ever carried out, with a floatation value of over £4bn and a subscriber base of 2.4m British citizens. On a smaller scale, the same is true of British Petroleum, British Gas, British Airways, the British Airport Authority, Cable & Wireless, Amersham International, British Aerospace, and Rolls-Royce, which were all sold to the general public. Those that weren't were not sold to a few oligarchs, but to staff (SeaLink Ferries), to local people (Vickers Shipyard), or to publicly traded companies (Rover). Now, most of these companies are world beaters, when, in the 1970s and early 1980s, they were decrepit shells of companies.

3. Iraq invaded Kuwait in August 1990. Thatcher resigned in November 1990. Thatcher played a massive role in persuading the Americans to get off their keisters.

4. Thatcher was 100% opposed to the Maastricht Treaty, and it was that opposition that led to her resignation, when she realised that about half of Conservative MPs were pro-Maastricht. Her last two of famous speeches in the House of Commons were concerned with making that unambiguous: No, No, No!

5. Heavy industry is not the way to make a country rich. If jobs in smoke-belching factories, hammering bits of metal, supported by the taxpayer at the expense of better jobs, are what you want, you have some cognitive issues.

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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old November 14th, 2005, 16:46
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Originally Posted by Bastin

5. Heavy industry is not the way to make a country rich. If jobs in smoke-belching factories, hammering bits of metal, supported by the taxpayer at the expense of better jobs, are what you want, you have some cognitive issues.
Its not about rich or making so much profit, its about people's lives. What industry do you work in?? Imagine Blair decided that its dispensable, it would force you to re-train and relocate somewhere else.

This breaks down communities and families, is a leader of a country supposed to be so cruel and devisive???
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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old November 14th, 2005, 16:58 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 2Pac
Its not about rich or making so much profit, its about people's lives.
No, it's not. What right does the state have to take my money and to pay coal-miners with it, simply because some Ivory Tower egg-heads thought it important to have a domestic coal industry?
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What industry do you work in?? Imagine Blair decided that its dispensable, it would force you to re-train and relocate somewhere else.
Blair doesn't employ me (and neither does anyone else, at the moment, but that's irrelevant). I have never worked for the state in my life.

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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old November 14th, 2005, 17:04
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Blair doesn't employ me (and neither does anyone else, at the moment, but that's irrelevant). I have never worked for the state in my life.
You're missing the point, the state can destroy any industry if for example it create to much restrictions on that particular industury or raise taxes, they can simply re-locate
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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old November 14th, 2005, 17:17 Thread Starter
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You're missing the point, the state can destroy any industry if for example it create to much restrictions on that particular industury or raise taxes, they can simply re-locate
I'm missing your point because your analogy is false. Thatcher did the exact opposite. Thatcher reduced restrictions on industries, lowered taxes, and let businesses succeed and fail on their own merits. Some of them, most notably the mining industry, failed. Good riddance.

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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old November 14th, 2005, 17:25
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Originally Posted by Bastin
Sorry, but you're simply wrong on so many fronts.

1. Thatcher is widely misquoted regarding the term "society". Thatcher was responding to a claim that deliberately remaining unemployed didn't hurt anyone directly, as the victim was the amorphous "society". Obviously, that's nonsense. The victims were taxpayers, and Thatcher was right..
I wasn't misquoting Thatcher, but correctly quoting myself.
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Originally Posted by Bastin
2. Thatcher did not "do a Yeltsin". That's a ridiculous misinterpretation. Whereas the Russian Federation sold its assets as private organisations, privatised British companies were floated on the stock market, free for anyone to buy. Whereas Yeltsin raised peanuts by selling way below market price, British shares were sold at market prices, established by the stock market. Whereas Yeltsin concentrated power in the hands of a few, privatisation of British companies increased the number of shareholders in the UK several times over...
And she did it to finance a cut in the higher rate of tax, to make her cronies better off by selling to the public companies already owned by, ermm... the public. I admire it, but I love heist movies too
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Originally Posted by Bastin
The floatation of BT was (then) the largest ever carried out, with a floatation value of over £4bn and a subscriber base of 2.4m British citizens. On a smaller scale, the same is true of British Petroleum, British Gas, British Airways, the British Airport Authority, Cable & Wireless, Amersham International, British Aerospace, and Rolls-Royce, which were all sold to the general public. Those that weren't were not sold to a few oligarchs, but to staff (SeaLink Ferries), to local people (Vickers Shipyard), or to publicly traded companies (Rover). Now, most of these companies are world beaters, when, in the 1970s and early 1980s, they were decrepit shells of companies.
Some were successes, yes, and some continued to be bloated dinosaurs (BT)
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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old November 14th, 2005, 17:37 Thread Starter
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I wasn't misquoting Thatcher, but correctly quoting myself.
I was assuming that 2Pac's question "Do you agree with her?" was in reference to that infamous misquote.
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And she did it to finance a cut in the higher rate of tax, to make her cronies better off by selling to the public companies already owned by, ermm... the public. I admire it, but I love heist movies too
Nothing was required to 'fund' the tax cuts. The tax cuts increased budget revenue (see my post on the Laffer Curve in the Blair Defeated! thread): increases that were only supplemented by income from equity sales.

Moreover, taxes were ct across the board. In 1983, the top 10% paid 32% of total tax in the UK. In 1987, they paid 45%. It doesn't seem like those rich "cronies" benefited from tax cuts as much as the rest of society did.
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Some were successes, yes, and some continued to be bloated dinosaurs (BT)
This being the same BT that, by the end of the 1980s, was making over £1bn of post-tax profit a year? It became one of the world's most profitable companies, and was one of the few technology and telecommunications firms that survived the Dotcom bubble relatively unhurt (same profits in 2005 as in 2000).

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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old November 14th, 2005, 17:54
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Regarding the tax cuts, I am repeating the line taken by the (Tory) press at the time. If I'm wrong I'll blame them.
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Originally Posted by Bastin
This being the same BT that, by the end of the 1980s, was making over £1bn of post-tax profit a year? It became one of the world's most profitable companies, and was one of the few technology and telecommunications firms that survived the Dotcom bubble relatively unhurt (same profits in 2005 as in 2000).
BT and many of the utilities made a huge profit in distinctly unThatcherite fashion, by having a near monopoly on the telephone system and having some of the most exhorbitant charges on earth (a burden on businesses), to subsidise thousands of dead-weight managers to walk around with a bit of paper up their arse all day (they even had Levels of layabouts: 1 to 4)
Thatcher would have garotted them if she saw BT close-up.
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