Consequences of the US/Iraq Mess - Xtratime Community
 
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post #1 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 18:22 Thread Starter
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Consequences of the US/Iraq Mess

What are, or will be, the consequences of the US' invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq?

Will Iraqi society adjust to democracy? If so, will such a democratic example "inspire" any neighboring nations, or is that just wishful thinking?

Will Bush and his aides be punished for repeatedly lying to the American people? Do the American people even CARE that their president lied and manipulated their fear to justify the war he wanted?

Would the Iraqi rebels stop committing acts of terror if their home were no longer occupied by a foreign nation, or would the elected Iraqi government simply continue to be attacked by the group that once shared Saddam's power?

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post #2 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 18:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrincha
Will Iraqi society adjust to democracy? If so, will such a democratic example "inspire" any neighboring nations, or is that just wishful thinking?
No, wishful thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrincha
Will Bush and his aides be punished for repeatedly lying to the American people?
No


Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrincha
Do the American people even CARE that their president lied and manipulated their fear to justify the war he wanted?
They care but the Democratic party is such a mess that they won't be able to turn the manipulation to affect change.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrincha
Would the Iraqi rebels stop committing acts of terror if their home were no longer occupied by a foreign nation, or would the elected Iraqi government simply continue to be attacked by the group that once shared Saddam's power?
The rebels won't stop, the hatred between shiites and sunnies goes beyond the US occupation and civil war will explode until one the groups takes control.

GrÓcies Pare, descansi en pau.
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post #3 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 18:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrincha
What are, or will be, the consequences of the US' invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq?

Will Iraqi society adjust to democracy? If so, will such a democratic example "inspire" any neighboring nations, or is that just wishful thinking?

Will Bush and his aides be punished for repeatedly lying to the American people? Do the American people even CARE that their president lied and manipulated their fear to justify the war he wanted?

Would the Iraqi rebels stop committing acts of terror if their home were no longer occupied by a foreign nation, or would the elected Iraqi government simply continue to be attacked by the group that once shared Saddam's power?
1) I don't know. I think it's still an open question? I feel both parties might have an unattainable goal. The US setting up a democracy in a part of the world that doesn't care for it and putting three groups together that hate one another? Or the insurgents who want Iraq to go back to to the Sunni dominated place it was during Saddam's time. I don't know which one is more attainable.

2) I think you see signs. The people have come out to vote during very hard times. I mean many people voted even though their were being scared by insurgents with death. So i think people want to vote and want to express themselves. I think Iran is very openly nervous about Iraq because you'd have millions of Shia muslims voting in a free election wouldn't spell good news for their regime.

3) Your third question is flawed. Clinton, Bush Sr both had the same intelligence that Bush jr had and they both concluded that he had WMD's. Even nations like France and Germany who were against the war believed that Iraq had WMD's. On the WMD topic most people just now are playing mondy night quarterback.

4) I think the insurgents are basically a Sunni Arab movement at this point. They want things to be the way they use to be with the Bathist in control. So anything that doesn't pertain to that goal is an enemy. If Iraq is democratic it will be runned by the Shia so thats something the insurgents don't want. So i see no reason why they would stop if the US troops leave.
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post #4 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 19:24
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post #5 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 19:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by croatian batman

3) Your third question is flawed. Clinton, Bush Sr both had the same intelligence that Bush jr had and they both concluded that he had WMD's. Even nations like France and Germany who were against the war believed that Iraq had WMD's. On the WMD topic most people just now are playing mondy night quarterback.
Neither Clinton, nor Bush(snr + jnr), nor the UK, nor France, nor Germany had any reliable intelligence whatsoever about Iraq - including the non-existant WMDs.
Many assorted stupid politicians in those countries said they 'believed' such fairy stories, but did anyone sensible believe it?
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post #6 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 20:05
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1: Well, right now the consequence is chaos, destability and an increased risk of terror.
Long term consequences are nigh on the impossible to predict, I think.

2: You cannot force democracy. There has to be stability of institutions to have a fucntional democracy, and chances are that this will never be the case as long as there are foreign troops there. Not necessarily because of the Iraqi's at large, but because an 'enemy' presence in a country without stability and order will be enough to provoke islamist insurgents, sunni ditto and Iran-directed/inspired shia to create turmoil.
Democracy in Iraq will have to face the sustainability challenge when foreign force in fact leave. Before that it won't have legitimacy in the neighbouring countries, and it won't be looked upon as an enviable alternative (all else being equal).

3: Lots of people care, of course, but too many politicians from the Democrats (and lets not forget that some Republicans are also voicing criticism) will be too personally involved with external actors to demand a real investigation. In the end I don't think Bush will face any serious judicial wrath. He'll be in the history books as a very poor president, but nothing embarrasing like Nixon...

4: No, and yes/no. There are different forces creating instability. Ex-Bathists are very different in political motivation from (largely) foreign militant Islamists. But there's little to suggest that the violence would stop quickly if the American/British/coalition left.

That's why I don't think it's right for the troops to leave yet even if them being there in the first place is obviously a problem. The infrastructure must be improved before that can happen. Otherwise the risk of large scale civil war is just too great.

APATHY: A word now fallen into disuse due to a lack of concern for it.

The debute said it all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guo5p...eature=related

Last edited by Glen; November 8th, 2005 at 20:14.
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post #7 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 20:15
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Consequences??? Mess??? Maybe so, but no war is pretty. But on the other end we also have this.

Whether you agree or disagree with the politics or the war, it is incredible that this info is not delivered by major news media.


NEW IRAQ NOT REPORTED IN OUR MEDIA!!! (Most will say - "Of course I didn't know. How could I?")

Did you know that 47 countries have reestablished their embassies in Iraq?

Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?

Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been built in Iraq?

Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all currently operating?

Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program?

Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?! They have 5- 100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.

Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?

Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?

Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?

Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.

Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?

Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?

Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a televised debate recently?

OF COURSE WE DIDN'T KNOW!

WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW? OUR MEDIA WOULDN'T TELL US!

Instead of reflecting our love for our country, we get photos of flag burning incidents at Abu Ghraib and people throwing snowballs at the presidential motorcades. (And the Cindy Sheehan's of the world demanding an immediate pull out.)

The lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves two purposes. It is intended to undermine the world's perception of the United States thus minimizing consequent support, and it is intended to discourage American citizens.

(Above facts are verifiable by the Department of Defense and audited by the GAO in conjuction with the Iraqi Provisional Council)
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post #8 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 20:45
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Of course this isn't in the mainstream media. It just might indicate that something positive is occuring and that maybe, just maybe the US is not an occupying force by a reconstructionist force just like it was in Europe and Japan. That the US is willing to put it on the line and speak with actions and not just words.

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post #9 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 20:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
That the US is willing to put it on the line and speak with actions and not just words.
More and more it seems like the US citizens are not willing to continue with such effort. And it is irrelevant if we agree or disagree with occupation or reconstruction.

GrÓcies Pare, descansi en pau.
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post #10 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 21:02
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Flo thats 24 hour news for you. Everything that goes wrong is made to seem 10 times worse and good things aren't left in because well people don't watch when things are going well. And on top of that its way too political as well..

If we had 24 hour news during ww2 we would've been out of the war in the first week.
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post #11 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 21:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by croatian batman
If we had 24 hour news during ww2 we would've been out of the war in the first week.
Or, the USA and the rest of the world would had gone to war a lot sooner against the Germans

I do prefer the 24 hour news, which I hate than the goverment propaganda that was the norm during those days.

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post #12 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 21:06
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Not disputing the general argument made by the post, but two of the points need a comment:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flo
Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?
Yes. We knew this because many of them are insurgents and shoot at the coalition troops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flo
Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?
No, because it is complete and utter bollocks. The Iraqi media is not 'independent'. The whole blood-soaked battle against Sadr and his Shias started when some idiot from the Pentagon ordered his newspaper shut down because Sadr's ranting hurt his little feelings (diddums!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flo
Instead of reflecting our love for our country, we get photos of flag burning incidents at Abu Ghraib and people throwing snowballs at the presidential motorcades. (And the Cindy Sheehan's of the world demanding an immediate pull out.)
In fairness, it cannot be repeated enough that Cindy Sheehan is a moron.
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post #13 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 21:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by croatian batman
If we had 24 hour news during ww2 we would've been out of the war in the first week.
Unlikely, since you refused to enter the war until forced to do so during its third year.
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post #14 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 21:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila_the_Nun
Unlikely, since you refused to enter the war until forced to do so during its third year.
That's because we didn't have 24 hour news back then.

Oh and Attila, don't shoot the messenger with the above mentioned facts brother.
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post #15 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 21:50
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Quote:
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Unlikely, since you refused to enter the war until forced to do so during its third year.
Oh No! Not the infamous WWII thread hijacking! We've done this before!

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post #16 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 21:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barša
Or, the USA and the rest of the world would had gone to war a lot sooner against the Germans

I do prefer the 24 hour news, which I hate than the goverment propaganda that was the norm during those days.
You were around back then??

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post #17 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 22:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flo
That's because we didn't have 24 hour news back then.
If we had 24hr news back then we'd all have joined in with the Germans, 'cos a B + W Fox News, CNN, Sky and BBC would have swallowed all the crap about the Sudetenland Germans being oppressed, the Danzig corridor needin protection and the 'Polish' attack on Germany.
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Oh and Attila, don't shoot the messenger with the above mentioned facts brother.
OK point taken.
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Originally Posted by Humbird
Oh No! Not the infamous WWII thread hijacking! We've done this before!
That was one of my earlier efforts and I'm more ambitious now. This thread will eventually be dragged kicking and screaming to the subjects of Cricket, Uzbek belly dancers, Caucasian food, or maybe all three.
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post #18 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 22:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by croatian batman
Flo thats 24 hour news for you. Everything that goes wrong is made to seem 10 times worse and good things aren't left in because well people don't watch when things are going well. And on top of that its way too political as well..

If we had 24 hour news during ww2 we would've been out of the war in the first week.

as an old journalist motto says, "good news is no news"
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post #19 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 22:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila_the_Nun
If we had 24hr news back then we'd all have joined in with the Germans, 'cos a B + W Fox News, CNN, Sky and BBC would have swallowed all the crap about the Sudetenland Germans being oppressed, the Danzig corridor needin protection and the 'Polish' attack on Germany.
What? Never, not with Geraldo Rivera embedded with the Anschlu▀!

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post #20 of 218 (permalink) Old November 8th, 2005, 22:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawki
You were around back then??
Whats this? Teh JCamilo abuse all over?

No, I wasn' around. I am old but I am not quite that old, but the propaganda is well documented, isn't it? It was in the beginning of movies, it was at night before prime time TV, it was shown in schools, etc.

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