referendum: Should the comerse of firearms and ammunition be prohibited in Brasil? - Xtratime Community
 
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post #1 of 74 (permalink) Old October 4th, 2005, 22:18 Thread Starter
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referendum: Should the comerse of firearms and ammunition be prohibited in Brasil?

In october 23 there will be a brasilian referedum so people can vote for or against the comercialization of firearmas and ammunitions, seems yes will win by a land slide, as much as Im against firearms Im against the notion of being prohibited for carrying for a number of reasons

1) Blackmarket will never be stoped, we have huge borders, and I think its much worse having more illegal guns around then registered ones
2) Police is losing the war against criminals, at least the people that think they would be safer with guns should be allowed to have them legaly

This is just a way to cover up the incompetence of autorithies, as if this would be a solution to the murder rates we suffer.

So would you be against or for it?

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/d...21072005.shtml
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post #2 of 74 (permalink) Old October 4th, 2005, 22:41
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Completely against it.

A ban on firearms would prevent law-abiding citizens from protecting themselves, whereas it would merely inconvenience criminals.
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post #3 of 74 (permalink) Old October 4th, 2005, 23:00
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Until Brazil has a strong and secure enough police force, people won't be entirely secure. However, it could reduce petty crimes such as burglarys and robberies, and some shootings. I'd vote for a ban.
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post #4 of 74 (permalink) Old October 5th, 2005, 01:11
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Good to hear that there will be a referendum on it. The people will have their say.

I'm against a ban on firearms for citizens, as it puts law abiding citizens at a disadvantage to criminals, who aren't affect by such a ban, as they wouldn't have bought a gun legally anyway. A criminal, by his nature, doesn't abide by laws, so any law against firearm ownershp won't have an affect on him. The only people who will be affected by this, are the law abidings citizens, who now won't be able to legally own a firearm. The criminals know this and will have the advantage should the two of them encounter eachother. As long as gun ownership is legal, the law abidings citzens will at least have a fighting chance.

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post #5 of 74 (permalink) Old October 5th, 2005, 03:56
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What Boyo said.

Sadly, there are plenty of myths associated with firearms. The worst one is that no civilian needs them. This might be the case in an utopia where the police becomes aware of and responds to a crime before it even takes place, but in the real world, potential victims often do not have the opportunity to notify the police and the police does not always have the time to respond to an emergency call quickly enough. People need to be able to protect themselves when the police cannot.

Outlawing firearms has very little effect on crime. Bans do not take existing guns off the streets and there will always be a thriving black market to import even more. The few criminals that want a gun but somehow cannot get one look towards other weapons for their assaults, burglaries, thefts, and murders. At the same time, the law-abiding citizens that were never a worry in the first place are disarmed and left without the best means of defending themselves.

Why give the criminals the advantage?
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post #6 of 74 (permalink) Old October 5th, 2005, 04:10
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Originally Posted by Tim
Why give the criminals the advantage?
"Gun control? It's the best thing you can do for crooks and gangsters. I want you to have nothing. If I'm a bad guy, I'm always gonna have a gun. Safety locks? You will pull the trigger with a lock on, and I'll pull the trigger. We'll see who wins."
-- Sammy "the Bull" Gravano, former mafia hitman
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post #7 of 74 (permalink) Old October 5th, 2005, 04:41
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Go away with firearms. Normal citzens with not train and not capacity of judgement should never have the right to "defend themselves" with death when our laws do not have death sentence.
Not to mention that statistics show that the death in such sittuation happens more than often when the victim show as a gun and in the majority of the time the criminal have all the advantage (he is more skilled in using weapons, he is already in a limite sittuation, he is already in a immoral side, he is with surprise advantage and is already with the gun aimed), so having the gun to defend means more chance to die.
Very few people die by accident also because the guns in the house, but I prefer no death at all.
There is a huge number of crimes that happen in domestic conflicts due the time of anger, end with them.
and about 30% off the guns recovered with the criminals once belonged to the "good citzens", in this sense the notion to have a gun to defend himself (which does not work after all) is just helping to aim the criminal population.
I never saw a violent option to be any constructive.

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post #8 of 74 (permalink) Old October 5th, 2005, 15:06 Thread Starter
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JCamilo Im sorry but at least with registered guns you can track them, banning the comerce will only make the blackmarket stronger here. And as for fatalities, where is the number where guns prevented criminals?

Also I believe in choices, people should be able to make them not the governament for them.

Banning will only pretend we are making a solution for all the crime, when instead we are making things worse, no when someone wants a gun they will buy on the blackmarket, fueling the drug traffic and many more illegal activities
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post #9 of 74 (permalink) Old October 5th, 2005, 15:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liternit
JCamilo Im sorry but at least with registered guns you can track them, banning the comerce will only make the blackmarket stronger here. And as for fatalities, where is the number where guns prevented criminals?

Also I believe in choices, people should be able to make them not the governament for them.

Banning will only pretend we are making a solution for all the crime, when instead we are making things worse, no when someone wants a gun they will buy on the blackmarket, fueling the drug traffic and many more illegal activities
Lit, I'm very glad to see you on the right side of this one. Several excellent points have been made here and I don't see any reason for Brazilian citizens to not lawfully carry firearms.
In a perfect world, no one would ever need protection from another human being ... that is not the case and will probably never will be. When there are those that harbor little regard for human life, they will not hesitate to take yours. When your own government is unable to provide that protection, you must take measures to protect yourself, your family and your home.
Self defense should be a right of every human being ...
I just hope your referendum mandates gun safety education ... it really is a necessity for it to work properly.

The secret of happiness is to make others believe they are the cause of it.
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post #10 of 74 (permalink) Old October 5th, 2005, 15:59
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Banning the guns will not make any difference in the black market - Those are already "untracktable"

The numbers are already there: The majority of time there is a confront the advantage lies with the criminal. That means the number of "prevented" occasions are there in the minority.
The argument that a citzen like you and me had to have guns to security means we have to use guns to do a job of the cops. (If isnt enough that we have to make a law for those useless congressmen) The critic must be made towards the cops and the punishment, not aiming incompetent, untrained citzens.

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Also I believe in choices, people should be able to make them not the governament for them.
Too bad, but they already tell that we can not carry guns. Or what we can or not do with water. Or that we can only drive with the proper document. Or that we are obligated to vote. Or that you and me have to make that useless Army inscrition. Or that we can not see maryjuana in the streets. Or that we can avoid to pay taxes (They can, they call it Caixa 2 and are all happy). The governament already rules out many things that are not an option.

Quote:
Banning will only pretend we are making a solution for all the crime, when instead we are making things worse, no when someone wants a gun they will buy on the blackmarket, fueling the drug traffic and many more illegal activities
Non-criminals will not buy in the blackmarket.
And that is a false argument - I have not seen a single argument "that will solve the crime" made by anyone defending the ban. This argument is only used by those who want to prevent the ban. And you know why ? Because they have thin air to hold their position (Funny enough, the same people who defend the guns are those who use the "pro-life" argument to attack the Abort, where is the "pro-life" now ?Yes, I know asking politics here for anything similar as logic is a joke) and they must create a false contradiction. Less guns will represent some reduction of violence , mostly domestic, and will reduce the number of guns in circulation. Not the crime. But for the 32 kids that died last year for domestic accident in their house, go away guns.
And I won't comment that the argument "Pro-gun" just pretend to be a solution also, the possession of a gun means just a false sensation of security as any statistic can show. It does not reduce the crime or the danger (as we can easily notice everyday). The only valid argument they do not use : It is a option. They do not use because it hurts the notion of "democracy" the simple fact options are limited.

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post #11 of 74 (permalink) Old October 5th, 2005, 16:08
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Hawki:

I must let things clear:
The referedum will not allow brazilians to carry weapons. It is already illegal. (There is a few groups of citzens that can carry a weapon, but that does not change with the yes or not option). The referedum will only make illegal to sell and buy weapons if you are a normal citzen (and does not belong to any the exceptions groups) something that is already quite hard. Even; those who already have the weapon will still maintain it (as long with the legal documents).
It is more a method of more control (despite the claims that will make harder to control, that are false, because methodology of control can be developed for each new sittuation).

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post #12 of 74 (permalink) Old October 5th, 2005, 16:25 Thread Starter
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So JC banning comerce will not make the blackmarket bigger? The more you prohibited in brasil the more you open a door for bribery, you know that every new law that prohibits something here is just another way for officials to make money out of it. So why not keep it simple and actually try to make the police less corrupt

Also looking at places that banned guns crime rate always went up, while like places like Texas the crime rate is very low. I would never own a gun myself because I think there are better ways to be safe, but it is an option, while banning simple takes that away and makes corruption even greater here
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post #13 of 74 (permalink) Old October 5th, 2005, 16:34
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It does not, the law itself reduce the chance of anyone buying illegal weapons tu supply the black marketing in regulated stores (as I can add that any selling regulamentation here is also a excuse for someone to avoid it, so selling it also open doors for illegal acts, you know, our famous "Jeitinho")

And it is not true that banned guns make the crime rate go up and it does not make corruption go higher, the corruption is already out there.

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post #14 of 74 (permalink) Old October 5th, 2005, 17:08 Thread Starter
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again will the blackmarket be bigger or not? Would the people that used to by registered end in the blackmarket? The answer is yes for both questions, in a country size of Brasil this will only make things worse, with the blackmarket MUCH bigger weapons and drug traffic will increase and with that the crime rate

simple logic that you are not adressing
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post #15 of 74 (permalink) Old October 5th, 2005, 17:18
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Quote:
again will the blackmarket be bigger or not?
It is hard to tell and not really important, but I think no.
The demand for weapon will not increase and the black market - as you pointed do not buy legal weapons. You may say that some "normal" citzens will go after the guns and make deals with the black market but why would they do that ? Because the collect guns ? They are still allowed to buy. Hunt ? They are still allowed to buy. Are in such danger of life ? They only need a special request and they will buy. So who will go to the blackmarket ? The average joe who thinks to have a weapon "just in case" ? He wont go so deeply after guns "just in case". So, the new public wont increase the black-market.
In other hand; there will be less 30% of guns running in the black market that are supplied by robbery of the commun joe who had guns in his house. So it is more likely that the black-market keeps the same or be harder to find more guns.

Quote:
Would the people that used to by registered end in the blackmarket?
As I said no, since hunters, colectors, security agents are going still be able to buy it.

Quote:
simple logic that you are not adressing
Nope, the logic you follow is flawed, it is not likely the increase the black market.
And size is irrelevant - we forbide drugs in all territory. Should we give it up because it is big here ?

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post #16 of 74 (permalink) Old October 6th, 2005, 00:59
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I am going to go out on a limb here and accuse the government. Why do people feel the need to protect themselves? Has violence proliferated to the point where gun control is needed to curb crime? The roots of this problem go much deeper. Corruption and the inefficiency displayed by the police force cause for these delinquents to be at the helm of power and dictate their terms, so to speak.

The only logical answer to this conundrum is that the government needs to take measures to end organized crime, make stricter laws, install harsher penalties for perpetrators and focus on getting the police to do the job they have been hired to do.

In short, if there were no crimes involving guns and violence, gun control would not be an issue. People would feel safe inside their homes. Carrying guns is the answer for today, but not for tomorrow. When every Tom, Dick and Harry owns a gun, what example are you setting for the next generation? You are, in principle, teaching them that they can rely solely on firearms and not the law to back them up. This, in turn, will make the law more lax. And by that you will not only encourage the criminals who are already out there but will also open the field of criminality to more participants. And in the foreseeable future you will witness a rise in violent crimes as well as juvenile crimes. But to what end?

As JC quite rightly pointed out that the mere sight of a firearm will never discourage an attacker when he is already outlawed. My guess is he will most likely kill you anyway owing to the fact that he is a better shooter; he does this for a livelihood.

Are firearms used more often to protect the lives of honest citizens or to shoot with criminal intent? Surely the latter, otherwise, this topic would not be under debate. When you look at the calculus of gun control versus crime, the numbers do not add up. It is a losing preposition. In any case, people are still going to be made victims to violent crimes. And that is what needs to be addressed by eliminating the cause instead of asking citizens to brace themselves with weaponry.

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post #17 of 74 (permalink) Old October 6th, 2005, 05:41
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For me it is very simple. Defense is first and foremost the responsibility of the individual, and a firearm is in some cases the best line of defense. Furthermore, even if it were possible to magically remove all firearms from the hands of criminals, it should be an option for citizens to be able to own and carry a weapon. As the old saying goes, "God created all men, but Samuel Colt made them all equal." A criminal does not have to have a gun in order to be a deadly threat, and too often would be able overpower and possibly kill an innocent person using another type of weapon or even their hands. A firearm allows people to have a chance in these situations, either giving them an advantage over the criminals or at least putting them on equal footing.

I cannot speak for other countries, but it is estimated that in the United States armed citizens stop an average of 2,000,000 crimes per year, often by simply drawing their weapon, as shots are never fired in many of the cases. These are 2,000,000 crimes that would have taken place if citizens did not have the option of arming themselves. The two most recent shooting in my area, for example, where defensive shootings that stopped crimes in progress. One took place when a knife-wielding teenager burglarized a home, realized the elderly owner was inside, and then tried to slit the old man's throat. However, the owner brandished a rifle and shot the intruder several times, giving him a chance to call the police and to have the intruder arrested. In another, a group of armed men broke into a house, tied up a family, and threatened to kill everyone. Some alert neighbors took notice of the comotion and went to intervene, with one shooting one of the intruders. Now the family is safe, and the shot intruder is in policy custody and cooperating with police to capture his accomplices. Cases where a simple draw down sufficed are reported by the media less often, however, as they are not as newsworthy.

Many areas in the States seek to restrict firearm ownership and usage as much as possible, whereas others are liberalizing their gun laws. Guess which ones are making it easier for criminals. It's not the former. Texas, for example, passed a law ten years ago that allows citizen to carry concealed handguns if they obtain the proper license. Skeptics warned of blood flowing through the streets and Wild West shootouts occuring on every corner. Not only has this not happened, but, together with our "Make My Day" legislation, Texas has become an even worse place for criminals. Gun crimes still happen on a regular basis in places like Dallas and Houston, but these are mostly gang-related in the inner city. Another example is Oklahoma, where the passage of legislation allowing concealed carry has actually been proven to have had an effect on curbing gun-related violence.

That is not to say that firearms are for all law-abiding citizens. Some feel safer without them, especially people with children, and that is their choice. Others do not feel the need to have one, and that is their choice as well. Certainly staying out of potentially dangerous situations in the first place goes a long way. Gun ownership carries a great deal of responsibility, which includes owners educating themselves about their weapons and practicing their skills. People that cannot be bothered to do this could put themselves in greater danger by owning a weapon. Like any other tool, a firearm can only be used safely and effectively with the proper education and training.

Nevertheless, it should be every individual's choice to make. Not everyone is willing to bet their lives on neither the possibility of being able to notify the police in time nor the compassion of criminals to spare their lives.
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post #18 of 74 (permalink) Old October 6th, 2005, 05:44
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Besides, outlawing guns would make displays like these a thing of the past...



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post #19 of 74 (permalink) Old October 6th, 2005, 06:03
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There's no question about it, I think everyone should be armed. I think we'd all be a little more polite in the subway, at the bank, at work, at the nudy bar and, yes, at the airport if everyone had a gun strapped to their hip.

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post #20 of 74 (permalink) Old October 6th, 2005, 21:35
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Criminals are not the only ones using guns with the intent to shoot someone. "Law-abiding" citizens can loose it as well and it would be better if they don't have a gun handy. I don't trust people to use guns responsibly.

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