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post #1 of 95 (permalink) Old September 28th, 2005, 15:30 Thread Starter
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Wanted: Conservative Leader

Sigh. It's that time again. Five months after the election, when Michael Howard announced his resignation, we're finally entering endgame.

Moreover, we finally know what system will be used to elect a new leader. It's the old one. That is to say, the party's 1922 Committee draws up a shortlist, the 198 Conservative MPs whittle it down to 2 candidates, and ask the party membership (320,000 or so) to pick the leader from those two. The system has been used twice before. Last time around, it elected Michael Howard by default, when the 1922 Committee refused to nominate anyone else (therefore bypassing the membership). The previous time, it elected Iain Duncan Smith. Enough said.

It is possible that, if the Cameron, Fox, Rifkind, or May campaigns get their parliamentary maths right, and cut a deal with the centre-right members, Kenneth Clarke could be edged into third place. That's unlikely, and probably an unhealthy indicator of our party's democratic credentials, given what happened in 2003.

It's almost certain that the party leadership will be fought between Kenneth Clarke and David Davis. They could not be more different, but the party faithful can't really make up its mind. Clarke is the UK's foremost Europhile; is a 65-year old centrist; is a Cantabrigian, cigar-chomping, smooth operator; and has 18 years of government experience under Thatcher and Major and a love for jazz and classic cars. Davis is right-wing and 56; is a major Eurosceptic with only 5 years of experience of government; was brought up an immigrant step-father in a slum; skipped university, and paid his way through three degrees by working in insurance by day and the SAS by night. Oh, and Davis' grandfather led the Jarrow march. Chalk and Cheese have competition.

Glen: "That last post of Bastin's is just too authoritative to argue against."

gOD: "It scares the f*ck out of me but I'm with Bastin here."

Caćni: "Ah, there you go using that absurd über-memory of your's...not fair."

Boyo: "Even when it comes to rap, Bastin is an authority."

Attila_the_Nun: "A most respected scion of Misty Albion, the illustious Bastin - the redoubtable defender of all our noble traditions."

Humbird: "Bastin is very attractive when talking nautical! "
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post #2 of 95 (permalink) Old September 28th, 2005, 15:32
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Explain chalk and cheese?

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Nel cielo biancazzurro brilla un'altra stella - In the lightblue sky another star shines. Alija tu non sarai mai sola. Alija you will never be alone.
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post #3 of 95 (permalink) Old September 28th, 2005, 15:40 Thread Starter
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You don't have that expression? It's not exactly new; it's been around for 700 years. Chalk and cheese are different things. Any two things that are completely dissimilar are said to be "as different as chalk and cheese". How did you understand a word of the Sharpe vernacular?

Glen: "That last post of Bastin's is just too authoritative to argue against."

gOD: "It scares the f*ck out of me but I'm with Bastin here."

Caćni: "Ah, there you go using that absurd über-memory of your's...not fair."

Boyo: "Even when it comes to rap, Bastin is an authority."

Attila_the_Nun: "A most respected scion of Misty Albion, the illustious Bastin - the redoubtable defender of all our noble traditions."

Humbird: "Bastin is very attractive when talking nautical! "
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post #4 of 95 (permalink) Old September 28th, 2005, 15:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastin
You don't have that expression? It's not exactly new; it's been around for 700 years.
We don't like old things, we like new things!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastin
Chalk and cheese are different things.
You obviously didn't try the brie I had last week

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastin
Any two things that are completely dissimilar are said to be "as different as chalk and cheese". How did you understand a word of the Sharpe vernacular?
I read every Sharpe book and he never said "chalk and cheese" !


Anyway, when you say "the party leadership will be fought" what does that mean? Do you have primaries? Is this all worked out within the party leaders?

But tomorrow is new day and new chance. -- Alija

Nel cielo biancazzurro brilla un'altra stella - In the lightblue sky another star shines. Alija tu non sarai mai sola. Alija you will never be alone.
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post #5 of 95 (permalink) Old September 28th, 2005, 15:57 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humbird
You obviously didn't try the brie I had last week
I told you to shoot the guy if he didn't have any cheese, not eat a lump of chalk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humbird
I read every Sharpe book and he never said "chalk and cheese" !
Bah! Must have been an oversight. Sharpe and the Duke of Wellington are like chalk and cheese. India and the Peninsula are like chalk and cheese. Britons and Frenchmen are like chalk and cheese. The expression was made for Sharpe.
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Anyway, when you say "the party leadership will be fought" what does that mean? Do you have primaries? Is this all worked out within the party leaders?
Primaries are silly. For starters, the UK isn't a federal country, so it could never work. Then, there's the prospect of 'open' primaries. We're not choosing the face of an election campaign, as the US primaries do. We're choosing the leader of a political party, who has to lead the party over the course of a parliament, provide opposition to the PM, and step into the breach at any moment. You could go over all that 'System of Opposition' stuff, but the two aren't even remotely similar. They're like chalk and cheese.

Glen: "That last post of Bastin's is just too authoritative to argue against."

gOD: "It scares the f*ck out of me but I'm with Bastin here."

Caćni: "Ah, there you go using that absurd über-memory of your's...not fair."

Boyo: "Even when it comes to rap, Bastin is an authority."

Attila_the_Nun: "A most respected scion of Misty Albion, the illustious Bastin - the redoubtable defender of all our noble traditions."

Humbird: "Bastin is very attractive when talking nautical! "

Last edited by Bastin; September 28th, 2005 at 16:10.
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post #6 of 95 (permalink) Old September 28th, 2005, 16:48
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Originally Posted by Bastin
IWe're not choosing the face of an election campaign, as the US primaries do. We're choosing the leader of a political party, who has to lead the party over the course of a parliament, provide opposition to the PM, and step into the breach at any moment.
So is there a case where the leader of a political party would not be the candidate for PM at time of election?

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post #7 of 95 (permalink) Old September 28th, 2005, 18:35
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post #8 of 95 (permalink) Old September 28th, 2005, 20:02
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Can't see it making much of a difference to be honest,Tories are still completely irrelevant as far as British politics go. But ultimately I cannot see Clarke winning it if it is going to go to the members because the average Tory member is so anti-Europe, regardless of the fact that Clarke gives them a far bigger chance of picking up the voters who will be potentially undecided between Gordon Brown or whoever on Earth is leading the Lib Dems (not that they have a serious chance of winning either, sadly).

Will be interesting to see how they go though. For the sake of democracy in the UK I'm hoping that whoever they choose is a better leader than the pathetically unmemorable IDS. About time we had a decent opposition.

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we need to do something about moral relativism because it's really damaging the air condition. there's alot of harassing going on out there, specially during the night, and they use moral relativism to justify it.
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post #9 of 95 (permalink) Old September 28th, 2005, 21:05
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Indeed. I honestly believe he'd be their most popular leader. I am not sure who to expect to win, nor care for that matter. Boris would be a right laugh, and would attract younger voters. Lets face it, the likes of Cameron and Rifkind are not going to be charismatic enough to sway many votes. Howard relied on the traditional tories, and thats what he got. These two would get the same people, and none more. Boris would attract youngsters too
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post #10 of 95 (permalink) Old September 28th, 2005, 21:47
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I agree, if Bastin isn't going to stand, then Boris would liven the whole leadership contest up.

But on a serious note, Bastin do you feel that these constant leadership battles are having a detrimental effect on the Party? Can they seriously market themselves as the best alternative to Labour (New that is) when they seem completely unable to agree on even a leader? It's not exactly installing confidence in the undecided electorate.

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post #11 of 95 (permalink) Old September 28th, 2005, 21:53
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How conservative is a party that changes its leader more often than its panty-liners?

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post #12 of 95 (permalink) Old September 28th, 2005, 22:40 Thread Starter
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So is there a case where the leader of a political party would not be the candidate for PM at time of election?
There have been instances, but none recently, and none foreseeable. Until 1964, the Conservatives didn't even have a proper leader. It was assumed that the natural leader would 'emerge'. Unfortunately, when Harold Macmillan resigned (when he contracted cancer, in 1963), the Conservative Party didn't have a leader, or anyone even close to one. So, without a leader, a formal procedure to select one, and the necessity to have a leader immediately (because Macmillan was the PM), Her Majesty chose the Conservative leader, Alec Douglas-Home (Earl of Home).

Glen: "That last post of Bastin's is just too authoritative to argue against."

gOD: "It scares the f*ck out of me but I'm with Bastin here."

Caćni: "Ah, there you go using that absurd über-memory of your's...not fair."

Boyo: "Even when it comes to rap, Bastin is an authority."

Attila_the_Nun: "A most respected scion of Misty Albion, the illustious Bastin - the redoubtable defender of all our noble traditions."

Humbird: "Bastin is very attractive when talking nautical! "
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post #13 of 95 (permalink) Old September 28th, 2005, 23:15
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I already knew that
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post #14 of 95 (permalink) Old September 29th, 2005, 02:15
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what is meant by 1922 committee?

But tomorrow is new day and new chance. -- Alija

Nel cielo biancazzurro brilla un'altra stella - In the lightblue sky another star shines. Alija tu non sarai mai sola. Alija you will never be alone.
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post #15 of 95 (permalink) Old September 29th, 2005, 11:20 Thread Starter
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It's an organisation for backbench MPs within the Conservative and Unionist Party. At the moment (i.e. when the Conservatives are in opposition), its membership is open to every Conservative MP, except the leader. Its primary purpose is to inform the leader (or the government, when in government) of the sentiments of the party backbenchers. It also performs various formal tasks in the party, such as drawing up the leadership shortlist.

Glen: "That last post of Bastin's is just too authoritative to argue against."

gOD: "It scares the f*ck out of me but I'm with Bastin here."

Caćni: "Ah, there you go using that absurd über-memory of your's...not fair."

Boyo: "Even when it comes to rap, Bastin is an authority."

Attila_the_Nun: "A most respected scion of Misty Albion, the illustious Bastin - the redoubtable defender of all our noble traditions."

Humbird: "Bastin is very attractive when talking nautical! "
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post #16 of 95 (permalink) Old September 29th, 2005, 12:22
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Isn't that the job of the "whip"? There is so much terminology in British politics...

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post #17 of 95 (permalink) Old September 29th, 2005, 12:36 Thread Starter
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The whip does the opposite. Whips tell the backbenchers what the leadership wants. Then, they invariably force them to do it.

Glen: "That last post of Bastin's is just too authoritative to argue against."

gOD: "It scares the f*ck out of me but I'm with Bastin here."

Caćni: "Ah, there you go using that absurd über-memory of your's...not fair."

Boyo: "Even when it comes to rap, Bastin is an authority."

Attila_the_Nun: "A most respected scion of Misty Albion, the illustious Bastin - the redoubtable defender of all our noble traditions."

Humbird: "Bastin is very attractive when talking nautical! "
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post #18 of 95 (permalink) Old September 29th, 2005, 15:17
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This is very complicated.

But tomorrow is new day and new chance. -- Alija

Nel cielo biancazzurro brilla un'altra stella - In the lightblue sky another star shines. Alija tu non sarai mai sola. Alija you will never be alone.
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post #19 of 95 (permalink) Old September 29th, 2005, 16:32
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It's the fantastic, delightful "tradition" that Bastin is so keen on. I mean they still have lines to seperate the 2 sides of the Commons which are, if I remember correctly the length of 2 swords. So that when offended, they don't have a sword fight. Very 17th century...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LimboMan2009 View Post
we need to do something about moral relativism because it's really damaging the air condition. there's alot of harassing going on out there, specially during the night, and they use moral relativism to justify it.
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post #20 of 95 (permalink) Old September 29th, 2005, 17:26
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What do you expect, they were made at that time.
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