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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 01:23 Thread Starter
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Gender and the national anthem

This could be an interesting discussion.

Although the actual occurence happened in Austria, this is more of a general discussion and I feel everyone can comment on the issue...
Here's what happened: The Austrian Health and Women minister (odd combination, I know) wants to change the lyrics of the Austrian anthem to make them less gender-specific (men-dominated).

Those are the lines in question (the words in question are in bold):
Quote:
"Heimat bist du großer Söhne" (Home [you are] of great sons)
is about to get changed to
Quote:
"Heimat, großer Töchter, Söhne" (Home of great daughters, sons)
and
Quote:
"Einig lass in Brüderchören,
Vaterland, dir Treue schwören," (Let's pledge allegiance in brother's choirs, to you, fatherland)
should read
Quote:
"Einig lass in freud'gen chören,
Heimatland, dir Treue schwören" (Let's pledge allegiance in joyful choirs, to you, home country)
according to the minister.

Agree or disagree?

And no, it seems we don't have any other problems.

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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 01:30
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Ridicilious feminism at work. Let's rewrite all anthems of all countries even if they make up a tradition of 100s of years just to make them more pc
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 02:54
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That's easy for you to say, Andrija, because you are not the one always being left out. Even on legal documents here in the US, in the 21st Century, women are left out. Example: On real estate forms, single women are legally called "spinsters."

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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 03:46
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doent SONS does not fit like a general term, meaning boys and girls like it does in english and portuguese for instance? If it does that just sounds a bit wacky

When I say my sons, it could mean boys and girls
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 03:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humbird
Example: On real estate forms, single women are legally called "spinsters."
how cool is that term, I don´t see the reason to complain about it! Sounds so leet
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 13:10
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In the Dutch constitution the husband of the Queen is referred to as the wife of the King.

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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 13:23
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I remember a few years ago there was this group of British women, who objected to the use of 'his' and 'him' in many words. They wanted to change it to 'her'. So we would end up with Hertory instead of History, or Heralaya instead of Himalaya.

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Last edited by Boyo; September 27th, 2005 at 14:04.
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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 15:18 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyo
I remember a few years ago there was this group of British women, who objected to the use of 'his' and 'him' in many words. They wanted to change it to 'her'. So we would end up with Hertory instead of History, or Heralaya instead of Himalaya.
Nah-uh!

My take on the issue: We'd be a lucky country if we wouldn't have bigger (gender-related) problems than this one. Well, we are a lucky country, but not that lucky, there are definitely bigger issues.
I don't care that much about the anthem, as it is piss poor, compared to others - I always envied other countries at Olympics or World Championships for their superior anthems - but that new piece "home to great daughters, sons" is plain ridiculous. How does that sound, only separated by a comma, "daughters, sons". What are daughter-sons supposed to be? She-males or just male grandchildren? A really poor effort, in my opinion.

Lit: "When I say my sons, it could mean boys and girls"
Not sure how you mean it, but Söhne, just like sons refers to male children, noone here says "these are my sons", when one of them is a girl, but rather "these are my kids".
Of course the sons-bit in the anthem is meant in a general way, and is not meant to discriminate (I guess), the lyrics come from a woman, by the way (Paula v. Preradovic).
What is even more ridiculous is the "fatherland"-thing. Are we changing "mother tongue", too?

One interesting thing is that you see women either agreeing or disagreeing with the minister, but I am yet to meet a man (including this thread) who agrees with her point of view. Coincidence?

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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 15:28
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Well, I don't see why not for the sons, daughters part if it doesn't disrupt the rhytm of the anthem too much and they remove the bloody comma. Can't they make it "home to great daughters and sons"? Seems a bit redundant but if it will make some women happier - why not? Of course, I would agree that there are probably much more important gender-related problems to be solved first.
The fatherland part is absolutely idiotic, though. Women also have fathers ergo they have fatherland. What's all the fuss about?

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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 15:36
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Hmm, the Lebanese anthem's lyrics are "guilty of this fallacy" (speaking in the context of the thread topic of course!)

It starts off "Kullouna lil watan..." - Kullouna isn't gender specific in Arabic it basically means "All of us" roughly translated.

Then you have another lyric which goes "...manbiton lil rijaal" which again roughly translated means "where man flourishes/grows/thrives"

I don't think that last line has the intent of insulting, demoting, demeaning woman-kind. I guess if you interpret this linguistic habit historically you will find the word man appearing - as a substitute for humankind. (i.e. inclusive of both genders)

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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 16:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MxPx
Lit: "When I say my sons, it could mean boys and girls"
Not sure how you mean it, but Söhne, just like sons refers to male children, noone here says "these are my sons", when one of them is a girl, but rather "these are my kids".
in portuguese that applies you just say these are my filhos=sons. I thought in english people did the same
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 16:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liternit
in portuguese that applies you just say these are my filhos=sons. I thought in english people did the same
It's not done so much anymore...the term "children" is more likely to be used than "sons" to indicate descendants of either gender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinch
By that logic, we should shove dead people back inside their mothers, so they'd be ending their lives exactly where they started. But of course, we would need to get a doctor to slap the corpse on the butt before putting it back inside the mother's womb.
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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 17:18
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The United Kingdom must have the least sexist 'national' anthem in the world. It changes seemlessly between God Save the Queen and God Save the King, doesn't refer to men or women, and doesn't refer to the country at all (being the Royal Anthem, not a national one). That must reflect well on the UK and New Zealand.

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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 19:59
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Its ridiculous. Rendering history (hertory??) false by rewriting it because you arent mentioned by word (even though you arent excluded or deprived of anything concrete) is typical of the feminist agenda. It serves no practical purpose, only emotional gratification.

I'd be interested in hearing a woman defend this.

edit: I'd be interested in hearing a women defend ther.




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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 20:00
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I propose that the French remove any gender from their national anthem. That involves le, la, il, elle, lui and any feminine or masculine nouns.

In Germany they can only use neuter nouns.
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post #16 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 20:06
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post #17 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 20:34
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Change your name to Bean. No Mr or Mrs.

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post #18 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 20:50
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post #19 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 20:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humbird
That's easy for you to say, Andrija, because you are not the one always being left out. Even on legal documents here in the US, in the 21st Century, women are left out. Example: On real estate forms, single women are legally called "spinsters."
Hummy, you need to move to the UK. They are scrapping the terms "spinster" and "bachelor" in favour of "single". So no longer will I be the Spinister of the Parish

Bean, while I personally am not too fussed either way about whether a National Anthem is couched in terms of "he" or "she" (probably because the UK has the most boring, dirgiest, albeit gender fair, national anthem ever and has turned me off them), I do understand why those females who feel represented by a national anthem want female representation in it. Men are not left out of any official terminology, so fail to understand that for some people the constant non-referral of women in official nation speak can get annoying. But then as a history graduate, I know that the era when these anthems were penned, women didn't get the vote so weren't considered in the representation of the nation state.

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post #20 of 33 (permalink) Old September 27th, 2005, 21:03
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Heh imagine land of hope and glory?

Land of hope and glory,
Both parents of the free...
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