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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old September 9th, 2005, 23:17 Thread Starter
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7 Daughters of Eve

Posted this in the Lak Lak Bar and it may interest some people here:

"If anyone is interested, I read about this guys book in the newspaper the other day. I think they claimed 97% of Europeans have come from 1 of the 7 daughters of Eve (not the one in religion). Using DNA they have traced these people back to 1 of 7 clans of women who lived from Caucasia to western Europe between 10,000 to 20,000 years ago.

There are 36 clans world wide, and they believe most if not all decended from these women.

This is the diagram of the mothers of the 36 clans:

http://www.luciefield.net/worldclans.html

And for further info, read this:

http://www.oxfordancestors.com/your-maternal.html


They offer DNA testing for £150, and they should be able to link you to one of these clans. Once this is done, you can find out which people in the world share your DNA (famous ones too! ).

I know it may seem boring, but thought I'd share it with you"

Is anyone aware of this? has anyone bought Sykes' book? or tried to trace their background via DNA?

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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old September 9th, 2005, 23:51
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I read about this once before, but these 2 sites are really interesting.

Since DNA is maternal I suppose that I descend from Ursula which is particularly well represented in western Britain and Scandinavia.

Interesting that Tara which Irish and West Brits derive from comes from Northwest Italy.

And that 1% Native Americans descent from Xenia if there is some truth in that.

Which ethnical groups derive from Jasmine, Turks?

Good reading anyway.

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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2005, 00:03 Thread Starter
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Not sure really NN; I looked at the 7 daughters and not the rest. My ancestory could come from any 3 of the Europeans. Most likely to be Xenia (I traced as far back as Crimea) but this is many many years ago, who knows?

I'm actually considering the tests. I know it seems sad to some, but these things interest me.

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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2005, 00:19
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Well, it's possible that many people have other heritage then it may look since many people in the past emigrated to other regions and countries. Say here in Sweden we have large parts of Germans, Vallonians, and Baltics that came here long time ago and those people's DNA are certainly diverse then the typical Swede, or Ursula.

The Crimean Tatars were a Turkish people I think, maybe you derive from them. That means you may have a simular DNA like Marat Safin (Ethnic Tatar). A bit far fetched maybe, but interersting for sure.

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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2005, 00:31 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nasty nick
The Crimean Tatars were a Turkish people I think, maybe you derive from them. That means you may have a simular DNA like Marat Safin (Ethnic Tatar). A bit far fetched maybe, but interersting for sure.
That is exactly the area I was heading.

I am fair with green eyes and from the Black Sea region. I have family who are so blonde (green or blue eyed), you would never consider them stereotypical Turkish. My bro in law is Turkish but from the Caucases, it's very common in those parts.

From my experiences (and I may be mis informed) the Tartars had a resemblence to the Chinese (we consider the original Turks from the Altai Mountains in China). In the last 3 generations, there doesn;t seem to be a big trace of this (to put it bluntly, Chinese eyes). So this has confused me more!

I know the last 4 genrations at least were from the port regions (our family surname suggests work on boats), but it's very difficult for Turks as we never had proper surnames (Ataturk made it compulsory).

Sorry to bore you btw, I'm so into this recently

As mentioned, I think I can safely say - in the early 18 hundreds, my ancestors were from Crimea - going further back is a real pain!

I do think it's DNA time

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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2005, 02:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nasty nick
The Crimean Tatars were a Turkish people I think.
Actually Turkic, not Turkish. and they still are, so no need for the past tense.
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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2005, 02:18
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It's a question of how much original Turkish or Turkic ancestry modern Turks have.
One of the recurring patterns with migrations of peoples is that a group moves in, conquers an area, and then imposes its language and culture on the locals and mixes with them and after that it's very difficult to say what percentage of origin comes from where because weird things happen. For example, if say 5% of Turks today look like the Turks of the 12th century (I'm just picking a random number here) it might mean that only 5% of modern Turks derive from ancient Turks, or it might not mean that at all (maybe it's 50% or more, but the children from mixed marriages had more of a tendency to look like their non-turkic ancestors). That's where you really need DNA, but I thought only the patrimonial lineage could be examined with some accuracy...
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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2005, 03:46
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Most reliable DNA studies of ancestry are paternal indeed.

Look up this, it may help, though it's filled with genealogy jargon:

Cinnioglu, C., R.King, T. Kivisild et al (15 co-authors). 2004. Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia. Hum. Genet. 114:127-148.

There have been some tests done to determine the different haplotypes.

There are also more specific data for Turkish people besides main Turkish divided like this:

Turkish
Anatolian (Central)
Turkish(Istanbul)
Turkish(Konya)
Turkish(Cypriot)
Turkish(Southeastern)
Turkish(Erzurum)

Last edited by Benny; September 10th, 2005 at 23:47.
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2005, 10:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakan
That is exactly the area I was heading.

I am fair with green eyes and from the Black Sea region. I have family who are so blonde (green or blue eyed), you would never consider them stereotypical Turkish. My bro in law is Turkish but from the Caucases, it's very common in those parts.

From my experiences (and I may be mis informed) the Tartars had a resemblence to the Chinese (we consider the original Turks from the Altai Mountains in China). In the last 3 generations, there doesn;t seem to be a big trace of this (to put it bluntly, Chinese eyes). So this has confused me more!

I know the last 4 genrations at least were from the port regions (our family surname suggests work on boats), but it's very difficult for Turks as we never had proper surnames (Ataturk made it compulsory).

Sorry to bore you btw, I'm so into this recently

As mentioned, I think I can safely say - in the early 18 hundreds, my ancestors were from Crimea - going further back is a real pain!

I do think it's DNA time
Nah, that wasn't boring to read at all. I did know that many Turks look very diffrent, just compare a guy like Abdullah Ercan that is Blond with Faitih Tekke that looks South European with Necati Ates that looks Mongol or Asian, just like Ilhan Mansiz who is Ethnic Tatars I think. I didn't know that Tatars were more asian looking overall, maybe they just intermingled less so it looks more significient. However, the Fins do have a simular language family as Turks and they also have mongol heritage originally I think. (Not Indo-Europeans).

I bet it will be tough to find out about your ancestors if they didn't even have a last name.

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Last edited by nasty nick; September 10th, 2005 at 10:22.
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2005, 10:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila_the_Nun
Actually Turkic, not Turkish. and they still are, so no need for the past tense.
No need to pick on words when everyone else clearly understood what I meant. The Crimean Tatars were a Turkish people cause there are not many Tatars in Crimea left. The Evil Communist Russians transported almost them all.

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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2005, 12:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nasty nick
No need to pick on words when everyone else clearly understood what I meant. The Crimean Tatars were a Turkish people cause there are not many Tatars in Crimea left. The Evil Communist Russians transported almost them all.
I wasn't being pedantic (didn't he play for Yugoslavia?). It is relevant because we need to separate language and blood.
In English, Turkish applies to the Turkish language and to people from modern-day Turkey, so Tatars are not (and were not) Turkish.
The Tatars are Turkic, in that they speak Turkic languages.

It is important to separate the two, because the old-fashioned ideas (including Hitler's) failed to note the obvious ease with with an entire region can change its language for economic reasons (As Andrija PFC said, a migrating people imposes their language and culture on the locals).
Linguistically, it is sometimes proposed that Tatars are related to Koreans and Hungarians as well as Turks and Finns.

Using the incorrect and deceptive form when it is just as easy to use the correct form is a little sloppy, and unnecessarily so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nasty nick
The Crimean Tatars were a Turkish people cause there are not many Tatars in Crimea left.
A lot have returned, unlike all the other peoples who used to have Crimea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nasty nick
The Evil Communist Russians transported almost them all.
Again wrong. The two responsible, Stalin and Beria, were evil but not Russian.

Andrija, the DNA research was along the maternal line, hence the seven daughters of Eve
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2005, 16:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila_the_Nun
It is relevant because we need to separate language and blood.
In English, Turkish applies to the Turkish language and to people from modern-day Turkey, so Tatars are not (and were not) Turkish.
The Tatars are Turkic, in that they speak Turkic languages.
In Swedish (and many other langaues too). It's Turkish for both, nationality and ethnicy. And the Tatars derive from the Turkish or Turkic if you may wish Ethnical group. The Original Turks came from the mountains of Altay, that includes both Turks from Turkey and Tatars. They have more then just the language in common.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila_the_Nun
It is important to separate the two, because the old-fashioned ideas (including Hitler's) failed to note the obvious ease with with an entire region can change its language for economic reasons (As Andrija PFC said, a migrating people imposes their language and culture on the locals).
People have intermingled through centuries, everyone did it, Brits, Italians, French, Spaniards, African Americans. The Fact that Turkic people settled down in seperate areas, doesn't mean they are not Turkic today, but multi-Ethnical for sure. Fact is Turkish tribes intermingled with Mongol tribes long before they came to Europe for example. With that logic of course, you can't call any people for anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila_the_Nun
Linguistically, it is sometimes proposed that Tatars are related to Koreans and Hungarians as well as Turks and Finns..
Hungarian, Turkish and Finnish atleast are part of the same langauge family and they have feautures in common too, none Indo-European and all with some Mongol heritage originally. Hungarians quite little actually. But hey, I'm not basing Ethnicy on Language.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila_the_Nun
A lot have returned, unlike all the other peoples who used to have Crimea.
No they didn't. Today only 13% of Crimea are Ethnic Tatars. Their language is not even recognized and the territory is part of Ukraine. The Majority of the Crimean Tatars were expelled to other Sovjet Republics like Uzbekistan and never came back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila_the_Nun
Again wrong. The two responsible, Stalin and Beria, were evil but not Russian.
...Yeah right. Stalin and Beria were singlehandedly responsible for the Ethnic cleaning in Sovjet.

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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2005, 17:54
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Quote:
Andrija, the DNA research was along the maternal line, hence the seven daughters of Eve
I know, I was just pointing out that research along the paternal line is more accurate. I even think that I read somewhere that research along the maternal line is near impossible, but that might have changed.
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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old September 10th, 2005, 23:07
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I've always thought it was the opposite, something to do with the x chromosome being more unchanging than the y and the fact that women don't carry the y chromosome whereas everyone carries an x chromosome.

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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old September 11th, 2005, 00:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nasty nick
...Yeah right. Stalin and Beria were singlehandedly responsible for the Ethnic cleaning in Sovjet.
But they were not Russian. Stalin was from Georgia and Beria was from Abghazia (which is also in Georgia but back then was a separate little state or something along those lines).
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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old September 11th, 2005, 00:39
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It's probably best not to try to describe Abkhazia's political situation. Whatever it is/was, Beria was not Russian.

The point that Stalin and Beria were not solely responsible is entirely redundant. nasty nick made a mistake (a common one, but a mistake nonetheless) and meant 'Soviet'. It's just a pity that the Russians are always blamed for the shortcomings of the Soviet Union, just as the English are for the shortcomings of the United Kingdom. No comparison between Stalin and Blair intended.

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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old September 11th, 2005, 00:42
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The only thing I can think of that makes maternal lines more accurate is the concept of maternal inheritance. This involves the presence of DNA genomes in the mitochondria (organelles in the cell responsible for cellular metabolism). The mother (through the oocyte) provides the organelles as the DNA present in the sperm is solely nuclear. Therefore conditions/aspects of the individual that are influenced by mitochondrial DNA are strictly maternal in origin.





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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old September 11th, 2005, 01:04
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It depends for what you're actually testing. Most mitochondrial DNA(maternal) testing methods are acceptable and it depends on the method of the study and the samples.

I think the problem in lies a bit in trying to find out more precisely the migration routes and being that many men from the migrating peoples tend to mate with the women already there. With Y-chromosome analysis and calculations and by analyzing the more frequent mutations in the Y-chromosomes I think they can calculate it more precisely. But a good study should take into consideration both methods.
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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old September 11th, 2005, 01:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastin
No comparison between Stalin and Blair intended.
But you were tempted, admit it, just a little....


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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old September 11th, 2005, 03:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrija PFC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastin
No comparison between Stalin and Blair intended.
But you were tempted, admit it, just a little....
Stalin was an amoral, sick, perverted, twisted genius who would happily watch kids die if it suited his own political agenda.
Whereas Blair is NOT a genius.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastin
It's probably best not to try to describe Abkhazia's political situation. Whatever it is/was, Beria was not Russian.

The point that Stalin and Beria were not solely responsible is entirely redundant. nasty nick made a mistake (a common one, but a mistake nonetheless) and meant 'Soviet'. It's just a pity that the Russians are always blamed for the shortcomings of the Soviet Union, just as the English are for the shortcomings of the United Kingdom.
That is stretching credibility to the limit, Bastin (albeit in a valiant attempt to be kind to our resident bigot) because no-one would discuss Crimea and make such a mistake if they were even slightly serious about discussing the subject. That sort of 'mistake' is the preserve of the usual suspects.

Last edited by Attila_the_Nun; September 11th, 2005 at 03:50.
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