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post #1 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 16:46 Thread Starter
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Anglo-Dutch wars

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Originally Posted by Bastin
Hey, if Boyo wants to take it to the history forum, I'm all for that. I think he could do with the instruction.
Bring it on!

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England fought two Anglo-Dutch wars with the United Provinces, winning the First, drawing the Second, and drawing the Third.
You won the first time because the 'politicians' at that time put pressure on Admiral Tromp, who was ordered to devide his forces. Politicians should never involve themselves in strategic military decisions. It always spells disaster.

In the second war the English were slaughered in the Four Days Battle. The battle ended only because of the exhaustion of supplies and both sides claimed victory, but the English lost 5,000 men and 20 ships, while the Dutch suffered less than half the English casualties and lost only seven ships. Two years after that Admiral De Ruyter attacked Medway, wreaking havoc on the English fleet. The Dutch then controlled the southern coast of England until the Treaty of Breda was signed on July 31, 1667.

In the third war the French and English signed the Treaty of Dover in 1670 after which the English supported the French invasion of the Dutch Republic. There were four main battles, in all four De Ruyter was at the helm of the Dutch fleet. The first battle was the Battle of Sole Bay, which the Dutch won. The other two battles were inconclusive, but the fourth one was again won by the Dutch. De Ruyter also defeated the French at Ostend and at Kijkduin. In 1673 the Spanish allied with the Dutch and by the end of the year they had kicked them out. In 1674 the British signed the Treaty of Westminster with the Dutch.

So as far as I'm concerned you were defeated in both the second and third wars.

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Then, the Dutch fought against the UK with the American rebels, and contributed zip (unlike the French),
The Dutch didn't do so much fighting, but they provided the weapons to the Americans that they used to kick the Redcoats out with, as such made quite a contribution.

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before fighting with France in the Napoleonic Wars and losing
The Dutch shouldn't have teamed up with the French. They couldn't fight worth a toss.

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post #2 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 17:22
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Originally Posted by Boyo
Bring it on!
Just let me get into character. Arrrrr! OK, I'm ready.

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Originally Posted by Boyo
You won the first time because the 'politicians' at that time put pressure on Admiral Tromp, who was ordered to devide his forces. Politicians should never involve themselves in strategic military decisions. It always spells disaster.
Cry me a river.
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Originally Posted by Boyo
In the second war the English were slaughered in the Four Days Battle. The battle ended only because of the exhaustion of supplies and both sides claimed victory, but the English lost 5,000 men and 20 ships, while the Dutch suffered less than half the English casualties and lost only seven ships. Two years after that Admiral De Ruyter attacked Medway, wreaking havoc on the English fleet. The Dutch then controlled the southern coast of England until the Treaty of Breda was signed on July 31, 1667.
We're discussing the war, not individual battles. For example, strategically speaking, England won the Four Days Battle. Moreover, we successfully blockaded Java, captured New Holland, and negotiated with the French to intervene in the Low Countries. The Treaty of Breda reflected the even result, with individual victories in different theatres; we exchanged New Holland and Suriname (a pro-English resolution); the United Provinces allowed the Crown to annex the Orkneys and Shetlands from its previously unique status (another pro-English resolution); and the United Provinces received some compensation by Parliament limiting the Navigation Acts somewhat (a pro-Dutch resolution). That sounds like a draw to me.
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Originally Posted by Boyo
In the third war the French and English signed the Treaty of Dover in 1670 after which the English supported the French invasion of the Dutch Republic. There were four main battles, in all four De Ruyter was at the helm of the Dutch fleet. The first battle was the Battle of Sole Bay, which the Dutch won. The other two battles were inconclusive, but the fourth one was again won by the Dutch. De Ruyter also defeated the French at Ostend and at Kijkduin. In 1673 the Spanish allied with the Dutch and by the end of the year they had kicked them out. In 1674 the British signed the Treaty of Westminster with the Dutch.
The Treaty of Dover was a personal treaty between Charles II and Louis XIV, given that it was never acceptable for Parliament or the country to return to Catholicism. Parliament had no idea that such a clause was included; when it worked that out, it voted against the continuation of the war, resulting in the Treaty of Westminster clearly stating status quo, ante bellum. I'll agree that it was a defeat for France, and a defeat for King Charles, but it wasn't a defeat for England. For Parliament and for the country, the result was actually highly desirable (given that William III of Orange later became King of England, Scotland, and Ireland).
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Originally Posted by Boyo
The Dutch didn't do so much fighting, but they provided the weapons to the Americans that they used to kick the Redcoats out with, as such made quite a contribution.
Nonsense. The rebels used the arms that we gave them or that they took from our arsenals, given that they were on British land.

The Dutch took sides with the French like cowards, despite being obligated to help the UK. In return, we kicked their arses (or asses ), crippled the Dutch economy, and left them wide open for their defeats twenty and thirty years later. Thus, whilst the UK lost the American Rebellion, it won the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War. Nonetheless, I'll give you a victory for being so darn opportunistic.

The Fifth Anglo-Dutch War was a British victory, and the Sixth Anglo-Dutch War was just a matter of mopping up as many Dutch colonies as we wanted.

Final Score:

England: Played three, won one, drew two, lost none.
UK: Played three, won two, drew none, lost one.
Netherlands: Played six, won one, drew two, lost three.

Arrrrrr, me hearty!

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post #3 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 17:44
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took you a while to google that one up, eh?
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post #4 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 19:20
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I don't care about any dutch, but england lost it all in the americas
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post #5 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 19:51
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That will be the United Kingdom as Scotland, Wales and Ireland were also involved.

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post #6 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 20:23
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Originally Posted by Natalya
That will be the United Kingdom as Scotland, Wales and Ireland were also involved.
It was in fact the whole empire, since before the independance technically the 13 colonies were also english possesions hence the inhabitants were english
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post #7 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 20:43
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Originally Posted by Bastin
The Treaty of Breda reflected the even result, with individual victories in different theatres; we exchanged New Holland and Suriname (a pro-English resolution);
pro England? that way we got Gullit, Rijkaard, Aron Winter, Edgar Davids, Clarence Seedorf, Patrick Kluivert, Michael Reiziger, Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink, Nigel de Jong, Stanley Menzo, Winston Bogarde, Gerald Vanenburg and Henk Ten Cate

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post #8 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 20:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalya
That will be the United Kingdom as Scotland, Wales and Ireland were also involved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloddyBill
It was in fact the whole empire, since before the independance technically the 13 colonies were also english possesions hence the inhabitants were english
Actually, you're both wrong. The colonies that rebelled were neither English, nor British. They were Crown possessions, just as Hannover, the Isle of Man, or Ireland were. Parliament offered the North American possessions status as part of the United Kingdom, but they refused; as a result, the cries of 'Representation without Taxation' are absurd, given that they couldn't be represented in the British Parliament any more than Hannover could.

Natalya is wrong, as the United Kingdom included only England and Scotland at the time. Wales was part of England between 1536 and 1955 (or 1999, or still is, depending on interpretation), and Ireland wasn't part of the United Kingdom until 1801.
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Originally Posted by Wally
pro England? that way we got Gullit, Rijkaard, Aron Winter, Edgar Davids, Clarence Seedorf, Patrick Kluivert, Michael Reiziger, Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink, Nigel de Jong, Stanley Menzo, Winston Bogarde, Gerald Vanenburg and Henk Ten Cate
You have some gall trying to hide Winston Bogarde in that list. Just imagine how much longer he'd have spent in the Chelsea reserve team if we'd kept Suriname. Intolerable.
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Originally Posted by Giureconsulto
took you a while to google that one up, eh?
What are the bloody odds? The moment I return to XT, this wazzock turns up.

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post #9 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 21:16
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very interesting...an obscure fact about the Anglo-Dutch wars; the propaganda of the time gave rise to the term 'dutch courage' for a person who needs a drink to be agressive.
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post #10 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 21:24
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Similarly, we got 'Dutch dates', based on the stereotype of the Dutch were seen as being stingy and discourteous.

Glen: "That last post of Bastin's is just too authoritative to argue against."

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post #11 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 21:34
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hey, you're right! I forgot about that one. Bad lot these dutchies
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post #12 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 21:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastin
Actually, you're both wrong. The colonies that rebelled were neither English, nor British. They were Crown possessions, just as Hannover, the Isle of Man, or Ireland were. Parliament offered the North American possessions status as part of the United Kingdom, but they refused; as a result, the cries of 'Representation without Taxation' are absurd, given that they couldn't be represented in the British Parliament any more than Hannover could.
As far as i remember only South Carolina and New England were crown posessions and Canada and Maine were Dominions, I'll look it up in "American Colonies" by Alan Taylor which is an interesting read nonetheless
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post #13 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 22:15
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Originally Posted by Giureconsulto
took you a while to google that one up, eh?
I don't think he does, Rom. I've "talked" to him about different things many times and he answers way too fast to be googling anything.

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post #14 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 22:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BloddyBill
As far as i remember only South Carolina and New England were crown posessions and Canada and Maine were Dominions, I'll look it up in "American Colonies" by Alan Taylor which is an interesting read nonetheless
Until the Durham Report, Canada was a Crown possession, as Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward Island were. The four New England colonies were, too, as descendants of the Plymouth Colony. North Carolina and South Carolina were descendants of the Carolina Colony. Virginia was under the Crown, not Parliament, hence its loyalty during the British Civil Wars. I can't imagine that such a Catholic state as Maryland was under Parliamentary control. New York, New Jersey, and Delaware may well have been under Parliamentary control (perhaps because of their foreign colonial history), but they would certainly have been in a minority.
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I don't think he does, Rom. I've "talked" to him about different things many times and he answers way too fast to be googling anything.
I'm a bit reluctant to let you fight my fights for me, but I'll let it slide just this once.

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post #15 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 22:28
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OK Bastin. This thread is a dream come true. I get to watch two of my favorite people, you and Boyo, verbally hack each other to pieces while one of my other favorite people, Rom, attacks from the flank.

Heyeheyheyheyheyhehehehehe11!!

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post #16 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 22:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Elliot
very interesting...an obscure fact about the Anglo-Dutch wars; the propaganda of the time gave rise to the term 'dutch courage' for a person who needs a drink to be agressive.
Hell even I get agressive if they serve me a Heineken

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post #17 of 53 (permalink) Old September 4th, 2005, 23:06
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Originally Posted by Bastin
we exchanged New Holland and Suriname (a pro-English resolution);
why would that be? How big was "New holland"? If it was just manhattan then I would say this clearly was in the favour of Holland. Surinam was much bigger and contained much more and better strategic resources.
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post #18 of 53 (permalink) Old September 5th, 2005, 00:29 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastin
Cry me a river.
The river Thames by any chance? As in the river that De Ruyter sailed up, crashed the chain they had spanned across it and had London at his mercy. That one?

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We're discussing the war, not individual battles.
Indeed we are, but as I understand warfare, especially back in those days, the side that wins most battles, wins the war. Although I'm aware that the English occasionally have had some trouble understanding that concept. p

Quote:
For example, strategically speaking, England won the Four Days Battle.
Let me see if I can comprehend that strategy. So if you lose more troops than the enemy, lose more ships than the enemy, you actually win the battle?

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Moreover, we successfully blockaded Java, captured New Holland, and negotiated with the French to intervene in the Low Countries. The Treaty of Breda reflected the even result, with individual victories in different theatres; we exchanged New Holland and Suriname (a pro-English resolution); the United Provinces allowed the Crown to annex the Orkneys and Shetlands from its previously unique status (another pro-English resolution); and the United Provinces received some compensation by Parliament limiting the Navigation Acts somewhat (a pro-Dutch resolution). That sounds like a draw to me.
Sounds to me like the Dutch were better on the battlefield than they were at the negotating table.

Quote:
The Treaty of Dover was a personal treaty between Charles II and Louis XIV, given that it was never acceptable for Parliament or the country to return to Catholicism. Parliament had no idea that such a clause was included; when it worked that out, it voted against the continuation of the war, resulting in the Treaty of Westminster clearly stating status quo, ante bellum. I'll agree that it was a defeat for France, and a defeat for King Charles, but it wasn't a defeat for England. For Parliament and for the country, the result was actually highly desirable (given that William III of Orange later became King of England, Scotland, and Ireland).
Ah, but that's from the perspective of England, when looking at what eventually came out of it. But when you focus on the war itself and how it ended, I can't see how it can be viewed other than a Dutch victory.


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Nonsense. The rebels used the arms that we gave them or that they took from our arsenals, given that they were on British land.
Not at all.

John Adams was of the opinion that they should not depend exclusively on French assistance. Such a position would give France too much influence on American policy. Some Congressmen had also proposed to investigate the option of doing business with the Dutch. Even before the French, the Dutch had been smuggling arms, ammunition and other goods to the rebels.

Quote:
The Dutch took sides with the French like cowards, despite being obligated to help the UK. In return, we kicked their arses (or asses ), crippled the Dutch economy, and left them wide open for their defeats twenty and thirty years later. Thus, whilst the UK lost the American Rebellion, it won the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War. Nonetheless, I'll give you a victory for being so darn opportunistic.
Cowards? How so? The merchants of Amsterdam found themselves, by the very nature of their profession, on the side of freedom of trade and shipping. As early as 1775 they were in contact with the Americans. The Dutch island of St. Eustatius in the Caribbean became the center of trade with the colonies, a trade which England naturally regarded as contraband. It was also there that the very first salute was fired to the American flag.

The city of Amsterdam had started its negotiations with the Americans in secret. A plan was drafted for a treaty of trade and friendship to become effective as soon as Holland would recognize the independence of the United States. But by then relations between Holland and England had deteriorated still further on the issue of the Dutch trade with the Americans. When England got hold of a copy of the secret treaty, it used it as a pretext to declare war on Holland.

In the field of finance, important relations were established. In 1782, Adams obtained the first loan for Congress, five million guilders, from three Amsterdam banking houses. In the latter years of the 18th century Holland was still the money market of Europe, so I wouldn't say the Dutch economy was crippled at that point.

Quote:
The Fifth Anglo-Dutch War was a British victory, and the Sixth Anglo-Dutch War was just a matter of mopping up as many Dutch colonies as we wanted.
By that time things had gone down hill and the Dutch nayv was a mere shadow of what it once was,so it was easy pickings rather than a stunning military victory.

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Last edited by Boyo; September 5th, 2005 at 00:38.
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post #19 of 53 (permalink) Old September 5th, 2005, 00:35 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Elliot
very interesting...an obscure fact about the Anglo-Dutch wars; the propaganda of the time gave rise to the term 'dutch courage' for a person who needs a drink to be agressive.
As opposed to the English, who're aggressive even without having had a drink.

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post #20 of 53 (permalink) Old September 5th, 2005, 01:05
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I"m not aggressive....and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise
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