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post #1 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 05:39 Thread Starter
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Turkey in the EU

I'm almost certain someone has posted a thread about this but it seems to be lost.

Its been a while since Turkey had talk about joining the EU. So I'm assuming this will not happen, and my question is why? In my opinion this will be bad for the EU in the short run but will contribute in the long run.
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post #2 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 06:11
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You're right, it isn't going to happen. And it really isn't a matter of it contributing or not, Europe is in turmoil politically and populism is the name of the game.
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post #3 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 08:44
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Damn and i thought Turkey might have something to do with it.
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post #4 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 11:18
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No, it is not a matter of contributing or not. It is a matter of them having no place in the European Union. Especially since they continue to refuse to recognise an EU country.
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post #5 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 12:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ירוק OLE!
Its been a while since Turkey had talk about joining the EU. So I'm assuming this will not happen, and my question is why? .
Same with Ukraine - too many people in poorer regions. These could be a drain on EU funds in aid and developement, money which is desperately needed to fund wining, dining, and whoring in Brussels & Strasbourg.
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post #6 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 13:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMOROSO!
No, it is not a matter of contributing or not. It is a matter of them having no place in the European Union. Especially since they continue to refuse to recognise an EU country.
Turkey will never get into EU anyway, so why recognize that country

"Without struggle there is no progress" Frederick Douglas.
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post #7 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 13:25
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Well don't, just don't bust our balls about the EU being "unfair" and "discriminating" against Turkey. Even better, stop crying to UK and USA's lap encouraging them to bust our balls...
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post #8 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 14:20
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For one thing is sure, even if we recognized Southern Cyprus, you would just want more and more without giving anything in return. I wouldn't be shocked if Greeks wanted Istanbul next

"Without struggle there is no progress" Frederick Douglas.
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post #9 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 14:22
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The matter of recognition is not a legal prerequist. Especially considering it was not mentioned in the accession documents, its now being used as a tool due to the current political structure. To use it in a PRAGMATIC debate is useless.

Secondly nobody is talking about the E.U. being unfair, nothing is fair in politics, politics is politics.

If the current political situation within the E.U. is not condusive to start membership talks with Turkey then so be it. If they're willing to go back on pledges put on paper while pandering to their domestic agenda thats their own business. But going back on political pledges does have its international political price, but its up to the people in question to weigh which is more important.

Either way joining a European Union that will be watered down by the national interests of each country in 20 years doesn't seem nearly as appealing.
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post #10 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 14:24
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Secondly is it just me or is this guy Amoroso a bit touchy? Did anybody use the words Unfair and discriminatory??? Calm your emotions my friend, this is just a message board. :O)
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post #11 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 14:33
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One last thing, I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not ( most likely not ) but Greece does not want, I repeat DOES NOT WANT recognition of the Southern Cypriot government as a prerequisite to starting negotiations with Turkey. You're probably wondering why.

Greece and just about every other country in the region knows if such a thing were a concrete proposal Turkey would pull out of negotiations on the spot. This would be counter productive to the national interests of Greece, a country which is hoping to gain many consessions from Turkey DURING the negotiation process. This is the strategy your country is following at this point. Its a very smart strategy at that. If Turkey pulls out of negotiations Greece gets nothing.

Why else would Greek diplomats be so angry with the French foreign minister who has been running around mouthing off about how Turkey must recognize Cyprus before the talks can begin. Many Greek and Greek Cypriot diplomats are furious that France is using Cyprus as a battering ram against Turkey for their own domestic agenda.

So I can't for the life of me understand why you would sit on these message boards and talk about recognition before the accession talks have even begun.

These are exciting times my friends, grab the popcorn sit back and enjoy the show. And stop being so sensitive. :O)
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post #12 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 14:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Hellfish
For one thing is sure, even if we recognized Southern Cyprus, you would just want more and more without giving anything in return. I wouldn't be shocked if Greeks wanted Istanbul next

Hellfish we really shouldn't confuse the policies of the Greek Cypriot administration to that of the Greek mainland one.

They are two seperate countries. Sure they support each other but their policy philosophies toward the Cyprus situation are not always eye to eye. The government of Greece just like the government of Turkey would like nothing more than to see a settlement on the island. This would ease relations between the two countries and make life much easier on the two.

As far as wanting too much, if you must point a finger, point the finger to the current leader of the southern Cypriot administration the x terrorist chieftan himself Tasso Papadopoulos. He is after all the guy who said " Turks can either leave the Island or die "
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post #13 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 14:47
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post #14 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 15:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeniceri
The matter of recognition is not a legal prerequist. Especially considering it was not mentioned in the accession documents, its now being used as a tool due to the current political structure. To use it in a PRAGMATIC debate is useless.
You're wrong. Turkey was supposed to sign the document of custom and trade opening with the EU countries, among them the Republic of Cyprus. That, in effect, is a recognition of the Republic of Cyprus as Cypriot passports would have to be accepted in Turkey, planes from Cypriotic airports would be allowed to land in Turkey, and ships under Cypriotic flag to tie in Turkish ports - something that is not the case currently. Now, when the document was signed, Turkey send a declaration saying that they still wouldn't accept these things which cause the comment by De Villepen.

Of course the recognition of the Republic of Cyprus is a prerequesit.

Quote:
If the current political situation within the E.U. is not condusive to start membership talks with Turkey then so be it. If they're willing to go back on pledges put on paper while pandering to their domestic agenda thats their own business. But going back on political pledges does have its international political price, but its up to the people in question to weigh which is more important.
Turkey has gone back on their pledges as well, by not recognising the Republic of Cyprus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeniceri
One last thing, I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not ( most likely not ) but Greece does not want, I repeat DOES NOT WANT recognition of the Southern Cypriot government as a prerequisite to starting negotiations with Turkey. You're probably wondering why.
You're wrong. Greece is one of the biggest allies of Turkey in their bid to enter the European Union, but the recognition of the Republic of Cyprus was always a prerequisite.

Quote:
Greece and just about every other country in the region knows if such a thing were a concrete proposal Turkey would pull out of negotiations on the spot. This would be counter productive to the national interests of Greece, a country which is hoping to gain many consessions from Turkey DURING the negotiation process. This is the strategy your country is following at this point. Its a very smart strategy at that. If Turkey pulls out of negotiations Greece gets nothing.
Are you sure Erdogan tells you everything? By signing the custom and trade agreement, Turkey would be recognising Cyprus. That was the agreement, and Turkey pulled out of it. And now they're about to face the consequences.

And yes, I'm aware of Greece's strategy. It just doesn't work because Turkey's military regime (the ones running the country) are a bunch of fanatics - and fanatics make bad diplomats. However, Greece was the EU's battering ram against Turkey for long enough, now let the other countries (which also do not want Turkey in the EU) to play ball while Greece is sitting back.

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Why else would Greek diplomats be so angry with the French foreign minister who has been running around mouthing off about how Turkey must recognize Cyprus before the talks can begin. Many Greek and Greek Cypriot diplomats are furious that France is using Cyprus as a battering ram against Turkey for their own domestic agenda.
The Greek and Cypriot goverments are not angry with the French - in fact De Villepen's comments were a relief. They were angry with Blair. The French prime minister said what makes sense, so Greece and Cyprus do not have to veto - which they would have if Turkey keeps refusing to recognise the Republic of Cyprus.

You really have no clue of what is going on over here.

Basically, here's the deal: Unless Turkey recognises Cyprus, they will not enter the EU. Erdogan might want to take all the time he wants aiming to find a solution to the Cyprus problem before he has to take that, rather unpopular among the Turkish people I gatherm, step, but in the end, he will have to cave in if he wants Turkey in the EU.
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post #15 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 15:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungaria
Damn and i thought Turkey might have something to do with it.

Wow you're a genius of monumental proportions. The premise of this thread is what has changed about Turkey's supposed accession into the E.U. Lets add it up.

December 15th commision releases its report finding Turkey has FULLFILLED ALL REQUIRMENTS to start accession talks. Then the political talks proceed December 17th were all parties agreed and put to paper that Turkey's accession talks would begin October 2005.

So if on December 15th if the E.U. released a report saying Turkey had FULLFILLED ALL REQUIRMENTS and then an agreement to start accession talks was put to paper on the 17th if now the talks are in jeopardy you tell me what changed. Could it have anything to do with the E.U. constitution being voted down perhaps and other domestic political issues with in the member countries?

Refer back to my original post and then ask yourself if your reply made any sense what so ever.
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post #16 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 15:13
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Signing the protocol is not recognition by law. Secondly aside from that being obvious during the Dec 17th negotiations Turkey even had a passage stating the customs union would not be recognition. PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THE DETAILS.

Also if signing the customs union which Turkey is doing amounted to recognition, why are so many people saying Turkey should recognize the state even after the customs union is signed. AGAIN PAY ATTENTION.
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post #17 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 15:23
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Someone is getting frustrated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeniceri
Signing the protocol is not recognition by law.
You're wrong there. If a a citizen can use his Republic of Cyprus passport as a valid document in Turkey, the Republic of Cyprus is recognised by Turkey. The protocol would enforce that.

Quote:
Secondly aside from that being obvious during the Dec 17th negotiations Turkey even had a passage stating the customs union would not be recognition. PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THE DETAILS.
You're wrong again. Turkey enclosed a letter/document claiming that the custom union is not recognition after signing the protocol.

Quote:
Also if signing the customs union which Turkey is doing amounted to recognition, why are so many people saying Turkey should recognize the state even after the customs union is signed. AGAIN PAY ATTENTION.
"Many people" - oh, that's a very trustable diplomatic source. These many people do not include the goverments of Greece and Cyprus so that wouldn't be a problem for Turkey then. So you PAY ATTENTION.

Besides, if the custom union was not amounting to recognition, why did Turkey felt the need to state this with a document, which lead the De Villepen comment? It wouldn't make much sense, would it?

Erdogan definitely doesn't tell you everything. You see, the EU goverments are not the only ones having to take care of domestic agendas...
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post #18 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 15:27 Thread Starter
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why did i even post this thread........i knew this would lead to a Turkey vs. Greece thing.
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post #19 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 15:29
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Speaking of politicians not telling the whole story as you mentioned with the case of Erdogan you should take your own advice. Instead of listening to what you hear in the Media or through double talk speeches politicians make to the public why don't you go read the official documents about the accession that was signed on dec 17th.

I'm sure you'll come across many references inside the passage ( signed by each member state ) stating the customs agreement DOES NOT AMOUNT TO RECOGNITION.

Apparently you're the one falling into the trap of politicians on T.V. not telling the whole truth. :O) Again the customs agreement does not mean recognition, if it did the recognition debate would have been gone since Turkey already pledged to sign. Also everybody knows ( well almost everybody since you seem to be in the dark ) that Turkey would stop dead the E.U. drive if it was called the recognize the southern Cypriot administration before accession talks. So with this being the case, why would it sign a customs union ( WHICH ONLY YOU and afew double talking politicians ) claim amounts to recognition. LOL

And please before this debate goes in circles for days go do some research about the customs union agreement. Apparently since you're not going to take MY word for it, go look it up. All European Union documents are open to the public via the internet.

Untill you go do that, like I said earlier we'll just keep going around in useless circles.
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post #20 of 48 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 15:33
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Besides, if the custom union was not amounting to recognition, why did Turkey felt the need to state this with a document, which lead the De Villepen comment? It wouldn't make much sense, would it?


You want to talk about what makes sense? Why would De Villepen make this comment if Turkey would automatically be recognizing by signing the protocol? I mean you're a bright guy, how do you not see this.

Why would they make a fuss about recognition if the protocol would amount to recognition? I just can't for the life of me understand how you don't see this.

Secondly Turkey had that passage added so there wouldn't political wrangling over it before October. Such as this useless dicussion we're having about the customs union.
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