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post #1 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 01:12 Thread Starter
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Sharon's Gaza Pull-out

Surprised nobody's mentioned it, but i guess the whole conflict has been beaten to death several times...

Still, this is a major change in policy for Israel and u-turn for Sharon specifically, as he's been a strong proponent and advocate of Israeli settlers immigrating to Gaza in the past.

I'm skeptical though about this being a real step towards peace, i see him abandoning Gaza because it was impossible financially to subsize only a few thousand Israeli settlers with lavish lifestyles and costing the Israeli state billions in the process to provide them housing and security, while 1.5 million Palestinians lived in squalor in the surrounding area. And i think Sharon is going to instead make a grab for more land in the West Bank, with the wall that's in place at the moment and which contravenes U.N resolutions (not like that has stopped them before) and the 1967 guidelines as a possible long term arrangement for a two-state solution, which the Palestinians will never accept.

Thoughts? Has Sharon had a genuine change of heart and looking to make peace, and painful concessions as a result, or is he being shrewd financially and looking to make a land-grab in the West Bank in exchange for leaving Gaza?

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Last edited by Nero; August 17th, 2005 at 01:19.
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post #2 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 04:07
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I am wondering when are the palestinians finally doing steps towards a peaceful solution?

Last edited by sanyi; August 17th, 2005 at 04:12.
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post #3 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 05:30
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Originally Posted by sanyi
I am wondering when are the palestinians finally doing steps towards a peaceful solution?
i've been wondering that for a while

As an Israeli i can only speak for the people i know, my friends, and family who are back home are for the pullout. But we find ourselves wondering why sharon is in such a hurry.....doesn't he want to clean out the terror in gaza before he leaves?? in israel there is a very weak mentality at the moment, people are sick of war. And don't let the protestors fool you! that is a very small percent of people who refuse to move......and i don't blame them since sharon sent them there in the first place and now is forcing them to leave. It is a good plan, if its done right, and its not because sharon created a deadline which he cannot reach in an organized fashion.
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post #4 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 07:36
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Nero your right to have doubt, for now this is a start but there is nothing set in stone.
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post #5 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 14:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero
Surprised nobody's mentioned it, but i guess the whole conflict has been beaten to death several times...

Still, this is a major change in policy for Israel and u-turn for Sharon specifically, as he's been a strong proponent and advocate of Israeli settlers immigrating to Gaza in the past.

I'm skeptical though about this being a real step towards peace, i see him abandoning Gaza because it was impossible financially to subsize only a few thousand Israeli settlers with lavish lifestyles and costing the Israeli state billions in the process to provide them housing and security, while 1.5 million Palestinians lived in squalor in the surrounding area. And i think Sharon is going to instead make a grab for more land in the West Bank, with the wall that's in place at the moment and which contravenes U.N resolutions (not like that has stopped them before) and the 1967 guidelines as a possible long term arrangement for a two-state solution, which the Palestinians will never accept.

Thoughts? Has Sharon had a genuine change of heart and looking to make peace, and painful concessions as a result, or is he being shrewd financially and looking to make a land-grab in the West Bank in exchange for leaving Gaza?

So Israel is pulling out of Gaza because it's too expensive to maintain while they award exiting settlers up to $400,000 for their homes and spend a fortune militarily on the move, but wait, they want to do this so they can spend even more on grabbing land in the West Bank...

I guess you cut class during the logic and math sessions huh?

....There was also a conspiracy against Sporting to keep them out of 1st place by 26 points. The conspiracy is about to be revealed in a public judicial forum soon enough. It's hasn't anything to do with Golden whistles, but with Golden Showers, as Sporting Administration and coaching has conspired to piss all over themselves this season.
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post #6 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 15:01
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Israel seem to pull out of Gaza while strengthening their grip over some West Bank areas that are both easier to defend and that contain more settlers. Seem like a logical move, but I so dont want to get into the politics of it.
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post #7 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 16:41 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RedEagle
So Israel is pulling out of Gaza because it's too expensive to maintain while they award exiting settlers up to $400,000 for their homes and spend a fortune militarily on the move, but wait, they want to do this so they can spend even more on grabbing land in the West Bank...

I guess you cut class during the logic and math sessions huh?
Well look who decided to join the party...

There are approximately 9,000 Israeli settlers that were living in massive compound complexes in Gaza, which costed the Israeli state billions to contruct, maintain and provide security.

If you think Sharon isn't cost-cutting by compensating them an average of $200,000 dollars to leave, and having a one-time military evacuation of the settlers, instead of incurring the long term overhead costs of mantaining the settlements there, then you're in need of some serious professional psychological help. In other words a shrink, Tony.

And how much would it cost them to have a land-grab in the West Bank? They already have thousands of settlements which are on occupied territory, and they've already constructed an illegal wall to barricade themselves from the Palestinians, and which subsequently contravenes international law.

Same old Red it seems, doesn't think much before he posts.

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post #8 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 17:13
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Originally Posted by Nero
they've already constructed an illegal wall to barricade themselves from the Palestinians, and which subsequently contravenes international law.

Same old Red it seems, doesn't think much before he posts.
they care about the palestini9ans with the wall. if the palestinians hate the israelis so much, then why complain about that wall? they don't have to see them anymore. or would they cry that it makes a suicide bombing more difficult? well, now that is a shame then!
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post #9 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 18:24
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Originally Posted by sanyi
if the palestinians hate the israelis so much, then why complain about that wall?
Because of the location of the wall on occupied land I beleive.
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post #10 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 18:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanyi
they care about the palestini9ans with the wall. if the palestinians hate the israelis so much, then why complain about that wall? they don't have to see them anymore. or would they cry that it makes a suicide bombing more difficult? well, now that is a shame then!

I have no clue so I suspest I should not talk about it but I´m clueless so...

Correct if I´m wrong, but I think the wall cuts their territory, so it becomes extremely hard to travel from one side of the palestinian territory to another. Its like two countries inside another one.
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post #11 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 18:32
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on topic, trying to see this as a bad thing a evil plot is not the right way! I think its a great step, even though I think Sharon is a terrorist does not change that this is a positive thing.
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post #12 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 18:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero
Well look who decided to join the party...

There are approximately 9,000 Israeli settlers that were living in massive compound complexes in Gaza, which costed the Israeli state billions to contruct, maintain and provide security.

If you think Sharon isn't cost-cutting by compensating them an average of $200,000 dollars to leave, and having a one-time military evacuation of the settlers, instead of incurring the long term overhead costs of mantaining the settlements there, then you're in need of some serious professional psychological help. In other words a shrink, Tony.

And how much would it cost them to have a land-grab in the West Bank? They already have thousands of settlements which are on occupied territory, and they've already constructed an illegal wall to barricade themselves from the Palestinians, and which subsequently contravenes international law.

Same old Red it seems, doesn't think much before he posts.
Much like a pungent odor you persist on following faulty logic.

Following your argument the US should give the state of New Mexico back to Mexico under your dumbass conclusions. Afterall, it's population is under 1% of the total, it's expensive to maintain, the border alone with Mexico is costing Billions to patrol, and we can always put those resources to good use in Iraq, which would make a better state.

No state in its right mind would give up something like land if it wasn't under direct pressure to do so.

Conclusion. You're a dimwit. Something I've always known.

....There was also a conspiracy against Sporting to keep them out of 1st place by 26 points. The conspiracy is about to be revealed in a public judicial forum soon enough. It's hasn't anything to do with Golden whistles, but with Golden Showers, as Sporting Administration and coaching has conspired to piss all over themselves this season.
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post #13 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 19:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liternit
on topic, trying to see this as a bad thing a evil plot is not the right way! I think its a great step, even though I think Sharon is a terrorist does not change that this is a positive thing.
I know this is a step in the right direction. I mean say what you want about Sharon but he's giving the land back he credited for taking in the 67 war. He's risking his political career on this the and possibly his life, least you can say is a step in the right direction!
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post #14 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 19:25 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RedEagle
Much like a pungent odor you persist on following faulty logic.

Following your argument the US should give the state of New Mexico back to Mexico under your dumbass conclusions. Afterall, it's population is under 1% of the total, it's expensive to maintain, the border alone with Mexico is costing Billions to patrol, and we can always put those resources to good use in Iraq, which would make a better state.

No state in its right mind would give up something like land if it wasn't under direct pressure to do so.

Conclusion. You're a dimwit. Something I've always known.
I won't even dignify the inherently moronic thesis of attempting to compare the U.S giving back New Mexico, with Israel giving back Gaza, with a response. Honestly, you have outdone yourself this time, in terms of sheer stupidity.

Israel used to occupy 20% of Gaza, which is itself a small stripe of land where a measly 9,000 Israeli lived in huge, expensive settlements with opulent lifestyles, engulfed by 1.5 million Palestinians living in poverty, who routinely tried to blow the settlers up to kingdom come. Israel spent a fortune subsidizing them and protecting them, knowing full well that the rest of the international community recognized those settlements as occupied land, and which Israel didn't have any sovereignty over. For once Redderick, look past your pathetic ability to reason due to your rose-tinted glasses, and try to look at the facts on the ground rationally.

Sharon knows Gaza is a dead end for Israel and which is extremely expensive to mantain settlements there due to their isolation from the rest of Israel, and by unliterally pulling-out of it, that makes him look like he's someone who is pushing for peace, and with the political points garnered from that he can now stipulate for any further and permanent peace deal, Israel should be compensated by receiving a large slice of the West Bank pie.

It's diabolical. First take something which didn't belong to you in the first place, then give some of it back. Then say that because you gave some back, you shold have right to some of the rest of it.

But why i am trying to reason and discussion matters logically with you, Red? A fool's errand.

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post #15 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 20:14
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I won't even dignify the inherently moronic thesis of attempting to compare the U.S giving back New Mexico, with Israel giving back Gaza, with a response. Honestly, you have outdone yourself this time, in terms of sheer stupidity..

I actually thought you had made a tremendous leap with this comment, by calling my parody of your sentiments moronic. But then you followed it up with this tripe:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero
Israel used to occupy 20% of Gaza, which is itself a small stripe of land where a measly 9,000 Israeli lived in huge, expensive settlements with opulent lifestyles, engulfed by 1.5 million Palestinians living in poverty, who routinely tried to blow the settlers up to kingdom come. Israel spent a fortune subsidizing them and protecting them, knowing full well that the rest of the international community recognized those settlements as occupied land, and which Israel didn't have any sovereignty over. For once Redderick, look past your pathetic ability to reason due to your rose-tinted glasses, and try to look at the facts on the ground rationally.

Sharon knows Gaza is a dead end for Israel and which is extremely expensive to mantain settlements there due to their isolation from the rest of Israel, and by unliterally pulling-out of it, that makes him look like he's someone who is pushing for peace, and with the political points garnered from that he can now stipulate for any further and permanent peace deal, Israel should be compensated by receiving a large slice of the West Bank pie.

It's diabolical. First take something which didn't belong to you in the first place, then give some of it back. Then say that because you gave some back, you shold have right to some of the rest of it.

But why i am trying to reason and discussion matters logically with you, Red? A fool's errand.
I find it simply amusing that with your fondness for terrorists you have the balls to say I have rose colored glasses. I guess you must have gotten a hold of some illegal Testosterone shipment up at the Bride of the Red Sea!

Here's my last attempt at saving your putrid one celled brain.

Sharon didn't have to do jack shit about Gaza, because its a gamble politically. If the Palestinians as they have done so in the past, spit at this attempt for peace, this move will back fire in Israel. Hell it's already divided the country politically. The only reason he's doing it, is because his hand is being played. Simple as that. The financial repercussions you so stupidly mentioned are irrelevant and wrong, as per the reasons I mentioned earlier.

I hope enlightment didn't hurt.

....There was also a conspiracy against Sporting to keep them out of 1st place by 26 points. The conspiracy is about to be revealed in a public judicial forum soon enough. It's hasn't anything to do with Golden whistles, but with Golden Showers, as Sporting Administration and coaching has conspired to piss all over themselves this season.
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post #16 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 20:30 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedEagle
I actually thought you had made a tremendous leap with this comment, by calling my parody of your sentiments moronic. But then you followed it up with this tripe:
You make a ridiculously warped comparison which in no way reflects the issue at hand, and you are claiming it to be a parody? Of you're inability to understand and process information with which to make cogent arguments, certainly.

Quote:
I find it simply amusing that with your fondness for terrorists you have the balls to say I have rose colored glasses. I guess you must have gotten a hold of some illegal Testosterone shipment up at the Bride of the Red Sea!
I see you need to spent a bit more time in the looney bin, as i don't think you're quite over the lasted couple of hundred times i've schooled your ass.

No hard feelings.

Quote:
Here's my last attempt at saving your putrid one celled brain.

Sharon didn't have to do jack shit about Gaza, because its a gamble politically. If the Palestinians as they have done so in the past, spit at this attempt for peace, this move will back fire in Israel. Hell it's already divided the country politically. The only reason he's doing it, is because his hand is being played. Simple as that. The financial repercussions you so stupidly mentioned are irrelevant and wrong, as per the reasons I mentioned earlier.

I hope enlightment didn't hurt.
Your "reasons" being your moronic comparison to the U.S relinquishing New Mexico back to mexico?

They say fish is good for the brain. You might want to give a go, as you're surely not making much progress on your own.

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post #17 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 21:16
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Speaking of fish, reading your posts on this made me realize that my Beta fish is smarter than you are. Like you he doesn't understand parody, but at leasts he understands that if he has a little less water in his bowl it means he has a little less room and oxygen.

It's time for you to go away and recuperate, yet again.

....There was also a conspiracy against Sporting to keep them out of 1st place by 26 points. The conspiracy is about to be revealed in a public judicial forum soon enough. It's hasn't anything to do with Golden whistles, but with Golden Showers, as Sporting Administration and coaching has conspired to piss all over themselves this season.
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post #18 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 22:18
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what a boring discussion this one has become again
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post #19 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 22:23
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Listen, i don't think Sharon has any strategy (as opposed to what Nero says), i'm no idiot and i know that this is simply for the goal of peace. We want peace, and we are obviously willing to give up alot for it. Forget the land we are giving up for a second and look at the protests that are going on! RedEagle is right when he says Israel has split into two countries politically!!! We have a police, and army which are forcing their own Israeli brothers and sisters to move out of thier own homes! Nero, if Sharon was looking for a strategy don't you think he would evacuate Palestinians out of Gaza rather then his own people?!?! Sharon is taking a big gamble and he's doing it for peace. We are not willing to just pack up and leave Israel for peace but we are certainly giving alot. The people who we are evacuating right now built their homes and used their bare hands to create towns and villages in this place, and now what will happen with all the things they built?? It will have no use, or it will just house more terrorist living in Gaza.
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post #20 of 106 (permalink) Old August 17th, 2005, 22:36
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Nero is absolutely right. Also the demographic factors urge Israel to retreat. It's no coincidence Arnon Sofer is a close advicer to Sharon.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pa...?itemNo=181001

I'm no fan of Sharon and have a enormous disliking of any form of militarism, but the way he defended his troops (yesterday or today?), taking full responsability for what is happening was impressive I thought.

We can bomb the world to pieces, but we can't bomb it into peace!

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