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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 02:34 Thread Starter
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Why we're not successful...

Here, I posted this in another forum. Tell me what you think and have your say.

1) Luck; obviously we're in Europe, and we're cursed to have to play teams like Spain, Portugal, Turkey, etc. over and over again in order to qualify. And let's face it... more than half the time, even Argentina/Brazil wouldn't qualify over Spain. And it's not only bad luck in draws, but also bad luck in games in general. Just look back at the match against Portugal where we hit the post/crossbar twice off consecutive hits. We're just one of those nations that cannot be lucky for once in our pathetic lives.

2) One of the most focal factors of winning games is off-the-ball movement. It's probably the most neglected factor in the history of football... and I believe teams like Spain and Germany keep it secret. A team with great off-the-ball movement but the quality of Slovakia for example will almost always beat a team with terrible off-the-ball movement but the quality of Italy/France (and hell we saw that happen). The Germans do this best. The players know exactly where to be, where to pass and where to make runs in open space. That's EXACTLY what we NEVER do or practice on. None of our coaches are up to that stuff. We play like Greece. We play guess & check...and knocking high balls from defense to attack and hoping for Dzeko to net in the goal. We'll NEVER beat a big side like this, simply because all the opponent needs to do is starve the midfield, push our defense, and checkmate us straight up the ass. Just look at how South Korea disgraced Greece.

3) Fitness. It's pretty much self-explanatory. For the last two German NT games I watched, I told my buddy in the bar that Germany will score a couple goals in the last 20 mins, because they almost always start strong and finish strong (and trick the opponent during the middle stages of the match by playing meek), and have the condition to play consistently on a top level for 90 mins straight. That's exactly what Argentina and England cannot do, and exactly why Germany mauled them. Germany also scored a couple on us in last 25 mins! Remember?

4) Organization. From top to bottom, we're not organized. I'm talking about from the FA, to the coaching staff, to the training, and all the way to the pitch, we're not organized. Of course everyone is familiar with the incompetency of our FA, I don't have to go over that. The coaching staff is unorganized and incompetent imo. I'm not talking about Susic in general, but if it takes you 5-6 games to realize Mravac, Muratovic, or Pandza are not fit for the international level, then obviously you need to go to the nearest hospital and **** your stupid brain up or sum shit. I've about had it with them ignoring obvious talent that can replace Muratovic, Mravac, Pandza, etc. (Ljevakovic, Cocalic, Avdic, Djuric, etc.). Can someone please tell me why Elvir Baljic (someone who is scouting Greece and Turkey) recommended a striker from the Greek 2nd league (1. we already have strikers!; 2. 2nd league!!!) instead of a defensive all-rounder (1. we DON'T have defensive players; 2. top division!) All of this was ignored by the Bosnian public because the Bosnian team under Ciro was successful at that time... and the euphoria blinded us of what is actually a big problem. You can't win games when the player choices are off. Our callups were always terrible, so I'm not surprised one bit. As for organization pertaining to the pitch, oh boy. Pandza and Mravac playing right back when they have never played rightback in their lives (and hell...they shouldn't be playing for the NT to begin with!), Ibisevic being played as a playmaker, winger, etc. when clearly he's a centerforward, Salihovic constantly being forced on the left side, then switched to defensive midfield, then winger, back to leftback, leftwingback, next thing you know, he'll be a goalkeeper. Our team isn't fluid and cohesive at all, because the lineup constantly changes, formation constantly changes, and our players are almost always playing out of position. If we had half the organization teams like Slovenia and Germany have (hell forget about the FA problems, player choices, luck, etc... just let us have organization), we'd have beaten Portugal.

5) Overall cohesiveness of the team. We need to field a team with the best possible players playing all at once in a system and formation where they can work best together. A big step forward is Susic realizing that Pjanic and Misimovic at the same time from the start equals success. We literally had the Germans backed against their goal and shaking throughout the whole 1st half mainly because the technical combination of Misimovic and Pjanic was a handful.

6) Training and okupljane before games. We literally train only once or twice (I don't count the light warm-ups the day before the match) before every match... and we expect us to beat Germany, Spain, Portugal, etc.? Fuck that. We won't beat anybody like that. I don't know why we're one of the only nations in the world that does this. It's a BIG problem that no one talks about! Before Turkey played us in Bilino Polje, they were already at our stadium the WEEK before the match, training everyday till the day of the match in the middle of our stadium. I remember sportsport.ba, sportin.ba, etc. shocked and in awe, trying to make it look like it's a scandal that Turkey was in Bosnia a week before the match. Why are you so shocked? Everyone does this! Portugal arrived to our stadium a week before the match!
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 02:43
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Good post. At worst it will keep the forum active.

I'm definitely going to post something in here but I'm bit busy at the moment and will get back to it later as I have plenty to say.

Śuvres complčtes de Fikret Smiljanić

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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 02:54
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The main thing we lack besides basic luck is experience and professionalism. The unfortunate thing is that it takes months sometimes even years to get all the pieces together. :rollani:
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 03:08 Thread Starter
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The unfortunate thing is that it takes months sometimes even years to get all the pieces together.
More like never, when no one is doing anything to even attempt to fix some of these problems. And even if you do attempt, it will take years, when it's already too late.

I don't expect us to qualify, by the way. The road to EC for us is crooked, and we don't have the wheels to finish strong. And yes, I can be pessimistic about the national team because it's not my job to instill confidence to the team. That's Susic's job to be confident and say we'll top France.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 03:54
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I'm definitely going to post something in here but I'm bit busy at the moment and will get back to it later as I have plenty to say.
Same here.

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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 05:35
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I agree with everything but number 1. Anyone who blames anything on luck doesn't deserve to go anywhere. Us Serbs keep talking about bad luck in tournaments with refs but it's our own fault that we have this bad luck, thus it's void.
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 05:44
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failiure to put this team together:

-------------- Handanovic ------------
Srna-------Spahic---Subotic/Simunic----Corluka
---------Kuzmanovic-----Misimovic------------
Marin----------------------------- Pjanic----
--------Ibrahimovic------Dzeko------------

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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 06:43
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we are not successful simply because our country is fckd up in more ways than one and no other country is as fckd as ours. We will never be successful as long as the country is in its current state and it doesnt look like it will change any time soon or ever..

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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 06:57
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we are not successful simply because our country is fckd up in more ways than one and no other country is as fckd as ours. We will never be successful as long as the country is in its current state and it doesnt look like it will change any time soon or ever..
There is much economic and political turmoil in many countries that qualified such as Greece. And there is much corruption in FA's such as Serbia. You will probably qualify for the Euro's but you are bound to get raped.

You FA will be pushing certain players to start so they can pocket some money from their eventual transfers.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 07:12
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there are a number of reasons why BiH struggle to qualify for big tournaments IMO

1. it is true that Europe is the most competitive qualifying zone in regards to the amount of quality, solid, very good, great NTs... but it must also be remembered that Europe gets the most spots... unfortunately, BiH finds itself in a vicious circle in that because they haven't qualified for a WC or Euro, they rank in a lower tier and will usually get at least 2 good/great teams which in turns makes it harder to qualify for the next tournament... for Euro 2012 though, they have a fractured France and a disappointing Romania... good chance IMO... plus, Euro will be extended to 24 teams for 2016

2. BiH is a small country comparatively speaking... that is not always fatal as we have seen Croatia make the semis of the WC, Uruguay is in the WC semis now, but there is an obvious advantage bigger countries with pedigree enjoy... for example, in the last qualifiers, BiH's 4.5 million went up against Spain's 45 million, Turkey's 72 million, and Belgium's 11 million

3. as with a lot of other Eastern European countries, BiH doesn't have the infrastructure and money our West European counterparts have... therefore, the stadiums are substandard, the training facilities obsolete, the preparations for the NT are more no frills, little budgets, little bonuses for the players etc... for example, just think the money the Germans have spent simply on expert/tertiary analysis of their opponents at big tournaments

4. BiH does not enjoy the luxury of relying upon a strong league and in truth, for NT players to progress career-wise as well as technically, they need to move abroad and earlier than what used to be the case 10-20 years ago

5. BiH is a fractious nation at the present with the Federation and Republika Srpska and that cannot be helping

6. i will call them deserters for the sake of this discussion only, but plenty of Bosnians choose to represent other NTs and in plenty of sports which hurts the quality and depth of the BiH NT... i think this trend will slowly stop though

7. the FAs in Eastern Europe and in particular the ex-Yu are quite corrupt... therefore, that lack of organisation can hurt on-field performances

8. i do think big teams get certain favours... for example, UEFA unfairly decided to make seeds for the WC qualifying play offs which was only announced midway thru qualifiers... i truly believe that had France won their group, Portugal theirs, there would not have been any seeding
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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 07:51
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A part of it is its hard to be successful when you cant rely on your own youth players Bilbija,Sunjic,Vranjes,Bunoza,Galesic,Stevanovic.. ............ would give their right nut to play for Serbia/Croatia and they just take up a spot from some kid who would die to play for BiH,in other words theyr just using the BiH U21's for transfers until Serbia or Croatia come calling.I dont think any country in the EE or even the world comes close to having that problem,maybe the Swiss?Whats the point of Bilbija representing our U21's if he is going to end up playing for Serbia anyways?You have some exceptions like Dalibor Pandza but they are very rare.

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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 07:58
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There is much economic and political turmoil in many countries that qualified such as Greece. And there is much corruption in FA's such as Serbia. You will probably qualify for the Euro's but you are bound to get raped.

You FA will be pushing certain players to start so they can pocket some money from their eventual transfers.
Yes, but we are f.cked up beyond imagination. Like new dimension of f.uckededupness... One mind boggling f.uckup.
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 08:05
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A part of it is its hard to be successful when you cant rely on your own youth players Bilbija,Sunjic,Vranjes,Bunoza,Galesic,Stevanovic.. ............ would give their right nut to play for Serbia/Croatia and they just take up a spot from some kid who would die to play for BiH,in other words theyr just using the BiH U21's for transfers until Serbia or Croatia come calling.I dont think any country in the EE or even the world comes close to having that problem,maybe the Swiss?Whats the point of Bilbija representing our U21's if he is going to end up playing for Serbia anyways?You have some exceptions like Dalibor Pandza but they are very rare.
i think there will be a trend away from the cross border desertions in the ex-Yu

perhaps not with the Bosnian Croats though
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 08:23
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I agree with everything but number 1. Anyone who blames anything on luck doesn't deserve to go anywhere. Us Serbs keep talking about bad luck in tournaments with refs but it's our own fault that we have this bad luck, thus it's void.
I guess we are the luckiest of the bunch

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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 08:25
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A part of it is its hard to be successful when you cant rely on your own youth players Bilbija,Sunjic,Vranjes,Bunoza,Galesic,Stevanovic.. ............ would give their right nut to play for Serbia/Croatia and they just take up a spot from some kid who would die to play for BiH,in other words theyr just using the BiH U21's for transfers until Serbia or Croatia come calling.I dont think any country in the EE or even the world comes close to having that problem,maybe the Swiss?Whats the point of Bilbija representing our U21's if he is going to end up playing for Serbia anyways?You have some exceptions like Dalibor Pandza but they are very rare.
Dont forget Mirko Hrgović, who you stole from us

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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 08:30
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I guess we are the luckiest of the bunch
that is a different discussion, dude :smileani:
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 08:30
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I think it's misleading to try and list a dozen different reasons, when really I think it comes down to a just a handful. Here they are, from the macro to the more micro.

1. Inherently limited resources: We're a country of 3.5 million people with one of the shittiest economies and most unstable political regimes in Europe, and let's not forget that we also had a brutal war for three years, a war far more damaging to our country and to our football than it was to Croatia and Serbia. Realistically, we're not supposed to be doing that well in the first place. This is not to say that we should be defeatist - just look at Uruguay, which probably has a similar level of talent per capita - but that, unlike countries like France or Argentina, we have to absolutely maximize our available resources to qualify. Have we done that?

2. NFSBiH chaos and incompetence: I think it speaks volumes that we've gotten more or less completely used to the fact that, for the past four years, two of our top ten players (and maybe the best at their positions) have been retired for absolutely no legitimate reason. Yeah, that's not normal. Unfortunately, it's not really anything new for us either. Back when Elvir Rahimic was man of the match in the UEFA Cup final, he wasn't anywhere near our team. Why? Because Ahmet Pasalic wanted him to pay good money for a call-up. Ditto for Sead Ramovic, Samir Muratovic, Marko Topic, etc. And then let's not forget that most of our best players decided to boycott in the middle of the Euro 2008 qualifiers as well.

So really, given how insane the situation was, it's almost not fair to blame our failure to qualify on other reasons; the first 3 qualifying cycles (WC '98 - WC '02) can largely be explained by the war, while in the next few, under Sliskovic, it's remarkable that we came as close as we did given the things I mentioned in the paragraph above. Who knows how that game against Denmark would have gone if we had Elvir Rahimic instead of Vladan Grujic? In Euro 2008, we put ourselves in a great position to qualify with our B-team after those wins against Norway and Turkey... who knows what would have happened if Magarac Muzurovic had swallowed his pride and called up Spahic and the others against Hungary? Ultimately I think that having a normal FA and fielding our best players could have very easily have the difference at least one of those three times. These last qualifiers for WC 2010, the first since Pasalic was kicked out of the FA, were also the first ones where we more or less played with all of our best players (except for Salihamidzic and Papac, which, as I mentioned above, is a pretty big deal when you think about it).

The luck of the draw: So what went wrong with the WC 2010 qualifiers if we had our best possible team (although, again, Papac and Salihamidzic would probably have been a big help)? Well, part of it is the luck of the draw... I don't think that any other team in Europe had a harder road to qualifying than we did. If we had the luck of, say, Slovenia, we could have maybe been down there instead of Slovakia. Instead we had to get past Spain, Portugal and Turkey, two of which are among the top ten teams in Europe and one of which could end up among the top ten teams in history. And then there's the vicious cycle that Alchemist mentioned. Just look at Croatia's group... it's a joke, even though, pound for pound, the Croats aren't really much better than us. Our group for Euro 2012 is a lot easier though, so maybe we can make it now.

No money = questionable managers This is the last thing I'd mention. Our FA is piss poor, and one consequence of this is that we really can't hire any decent managers. Ciro was our only manager whose name actually meant something in European football, and even then he only came because he was washed up and Croatia had already abandoned his 3-5-2 years earlier. Susic, as much as I have confidence in him ahead of these qualifers, is basically an Anatolian reject. And choice of managers is critical... all that other stuff people mentioned - off the ball movement, fitness, up to date and suitable tactics, etc. - comes from having a competent and up to date manager. Our choice, however, is basically limited to Bosnians who are willing to put up with an incredibly dysfunctional FA for a miserable salary... that's pretty slim pickings. As long as we field our best players, have a decent draw and aren't led by a total muppet, we can still qualify. I'm just saying... it'd be a lot easier if we could do like Turkey and just hire Guus Hiddink when things go wrong.

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- The most succesful BiH club on the Yugoslav league's all-time table
- The most succesful club on the BiH Premier League's all-time table
- BiH club with the most appearances in international and UEFA competition
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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 08:38
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that is a different discussion, dude :smileani:
My bad

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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 10:20
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1) Luck; obviously we're in Europe, and we're cursed to have to play teams like Spain, Portugal, Turkey, etc. over and over again in order to qualify. And let's face it... more than half the time, even Argentina/Brazil wouldn't qualify over Spain. And it's not only bad luck in draws, but also bad luck in games in general. Just look back at the match against Portugal where we hit the post/crossbar twice off consecutive hits. We're just one of those nations that cannot be lucky for once in our pathetic lives.
This is probably the only time in history Spain is 'better' than Brazil or Argentina. We didn't do enough over two legs overall against Portugal to qualify, they're a hard team to break down as seen in the WC. Yes we should have scored in Lisbon and taking 1-1 as opposed to 1-0 back home is quite different. We could have played balanced and let them attack more then stung them on the break. In a way we were unlucky but we struggled in second leg.

Most the other points NB I agree with.

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2. BiH is a small country comparatively speaking... that is not always fatal as we have seen Croatia make the semis of the WC, Uruguay is in the WC semis now, but there is an obvious advantage bigger countries with pedigree enjoy... for example, in the last qualifiers, BiH's 4.5 million went up against Spain's 45 million, Turkey's 72 million, and Belgium's 11 million
Uruguay are a freak case, they contain footballing DNA, I swear.

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3. as with a lot of other Eastern European countries, BiH doesn't have the infrastructure and money our West European counterparts have... therefore, the stadiums are substandard, the training facilities obsolete, the preparations for the NT are more no frills, little budgets, little bonuses for the players etc... for example, just think the money the Germans have spent simply on expert/tertiary analysis of their opponents at big tournaments
There is plenty of raw talent but the way football is run in BiH just doesn't allow it to flourish.

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4. BiH does not enjoy the luxury of relying upon a strong league and in truth, for NT players to progress career-wise as well as technically, they need to move abroad and earlier than what used to be the case 10-20 years ago
Our best hope these days really are the diaspora kids.

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5. BiH is a fractious nation at the present with the Federation and Republika Srpska and that cannot be helping
Unfortunately.

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6. i will call them deserters for the sake of this discussion only, but plenty of Bosnians choose to represent other NTs and in plenty of sports which hurts the quality and depth of the BiH NT... i think this trend will slowly stop though
Doesn't help for sure and the line-up Zikz posted shows. Also reinforces my point about talent, it's there, it's just badly managed.

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8. i do think big teams get certain favours... for example, UEFA unfairly decided to make seeds for the WC qualifying play offs which was only announced midway thru qualifiers... i truly believe that had France won their group, Portugal theirs, there would not have been any seeding
7 minutes Spain got against us. And losing Ribery and Ronaldo for WC would cost too much money for advertising and damage the image of the WC not that either of them showed anything either in SA. :rollani:

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I think it's misleading to try and list a dozen different reasons, when really I think it comes down to a just a handful. Here they are, from the macro to the more micro.

1. Inherently limited resources: We're a country of 3.5 million people with one of the shittiest economies and most unstable political regimes in Europe, and let's not forget that we also had a brutal war for three years, a war far more damaging to our country and to our football than it was to Croatia and Serbia. Realistically, we're not supposed to be doing that well in the first place. This is not to say that we should be defeatist - just look at Uruguay, which probably has a similar level of talent per capita - but that, unlike countries like France or Argentina, we have to absolutely maximize our available resources to qualify. Have we done that?
I agree with all but we can't compare ourselves to Uruguay, they're remarkably stable for a Latin American country, up there with Venezuela in that continent.

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Originally Posted by Džoni B. Dobar View Post
2. NFSBiH chaos and incompetence: I think it speaks volumes that we've gotten more or less completely used to the fact that, for the past four years, two of our top ten players (and maybe the best at their positions) have been retired for absolutely no legitimate reason. Yeah, that's not normal. Unfortunately, it's not really anything new for us either. Back when Elvir Rahimic was man of the match in the UEFA Cup final, he wasn't anywhere near our team. Why? Because Ahmet Pasalic wanted him to pay good money for a call-up. Ditto for Sead Ramovic, Samir Muratovic, Marko Topic, etc. And then let's not forget that most of our best players decided to boycott in the middle of the Euro 2008 qualifiers as well.

So really, given how insane the situation was, it's almost not fair to blame our failure to qualify on other reasons; the first 3 qualifying cycles (WC '98 - WC '02) can largely be explained by the war, while in the next few, under Sliskovic, it's remarkable that we came as close as we did given the things I mentioned in the paragraph above. Who knows how that game against Denmark would have gone if we had Elvir Rahimic instead of Vladan Grujic? In Euro 2008, we put ourselves in a great position to qualify with our B-team after those wins against Norway and Turkey... who knows what would have happened if Magarac Muzurovic had swallowed his pride and called up Spahic and the others against Hungary? Ultimately I think that having a normal FA and fielding our best players could have very easily have the difference at least one of those three times. These last qualifiers for WC 2010, the first since Pasalic was kicked out of the FA, were also the first ones where we more or less played with all of our best players (except for Salihamidzic and Papac, which, as I mentioned above, is a pretty big deal when you think about it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Džoni B. Dobar View Post
The luck of the draw: So what went wrong with the WC 2010 qualifiers if we had our best possible team (although, again, Papac and Salihamidzic would probably have been a big help)? Well, part of it is the luck of the draw... I don't think that any other team in Europe had a harder road to qualifying than we did. If we had the luck of, say, Slovenia, we could have maybe been down there instead of Slovakia. Instead we had to get past Spain, Portugal and Turkey, two of which are among the top ten teams in Europe and one of which could end up among the top ten teams in history. And then there's the vicious cycle that Alchemist mentioned. Just look at Croatia's group... it's a joke, even though, pound for pound, the Croats aren't really much better than us. Our group for Euro 2012 is a lot easier though, so maybe we can make it now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Džoni B. Dobar View Post
No money = questionable managers This is the last thing I'd mention. Our FA is piss poor, and one consequence of this is that we really can't hire any decent managers. Ciro was our only manager whose name actually meant something in European football, and even then he only came because he was washed up and Croatia had already abandoned his 3-5-2 years earlier. Susic, as much as I have confidence in him ahead of these qualifers, is basically an Anatolian reject. And choice of managers is critical... all that other stuff people mentioned - off the ball movement, fitness, up to date and suitable tactics, etc. - comes from having a competent and up to date manager. Our choice, however, is basically limited to Bosnians who are willing to put up with an incredibly dysfunctional FA for a miserable salary... that's pretty slim pickings. As long as we field our best players, have a decent draw and aren't led by a total muppet, we can still qualify. I'm just saying... it'd be a lot easier if we could do like Turkey and just hire Guus Hiddink when things go wrong.
I agree with all.

Sorry about all the big quotes I highlighted lads but people have made a lot of good points and saved me a lot of typing as well.

Śuvres complčtes de Fikret Smiljanić
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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old July 5th, 2010, 13:17
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Oh jesus, you expect people to read that ?

The entire world finally knows what us Croatians have known all along.

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