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post #1 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 13:45 Thread Starter
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Should Ciro stay?

What do you guys think?
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post #2 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 13:49
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Yes, no doubt.

He took us to playoffs, got Pjanic, Begovic and Medunjanin. He also made people interested in the NT. I think he deserves atleast one more chance.
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post #3 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 15:21
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I think he deserves to stay and get another chance but he is getting old and I feel he should relax and enjoy life for a little time outside of football.

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post #4 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 16:14
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Ciro has his obvious strenghts and his faults. He is charismatic, a master in terms of creating a great atmosphere within his squad and after he took charge I think we`ve been blessed with seeing pretty much the best players we´ve got also getting picked for the squads which earlier wasnt necessarily the case. He has also introduced some of our foreign based players with double citizenship to the national team (Mravac, Begovic, Medunjanin) and he seems to be aware of these sort of players so that there will be even more of such in the future (Vuckic a.s.o). That wasnt necessarily the case before either. He has also started to get a grip on bosnian club football in general, amongst others realizing that the players very, very rarely holds international level so we thankfully dont see the Mikelinis, Sarabas a.s.o in action anymore.

On the downside his tactics and line ups are sometimes questionable, and its really difficult to tell how we would have done with the same players under a different manager and formation/tactics. We`ve might have done even better.

As not a single one of our meritted coaches would touch this job with a stick as long as the current federation is in charge I doubt we`d get anyone better though. The only ones who would accept this position are either those bosnian managers that are 2nd class or some foreigner who`d most likely start all over from scratch again. This is the time for further development and nurturing of the current team, not a reshuffling of things. So yes - Ciro should stay.

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post #5 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 16:46
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No, absolutely not. And here's a quick run-down of why not.

- Absolutely no scouting: Ciro did not get Pjanic, Begovic, or Medunjanin, and frankly it annoys me a little bit that people are giving him credit for that. The truth is actually the complete opposite. Ciro was opposed to doing anything about those players until the media kept on pressuring him. He did absolutely nothing in terms of scouting. The fact that he only went and saw a single one of our players' Bundesliga games during his entire tenure says plenty. Carlos Quieroz, in one week, saw more of our players abroad play than Ciro did in his entire time as manager. Not once has Ciro seen fit to go to England, Germany, France, Poland, Russia or any country where potential national team players were showing good form. He didn't even send his assistants. He didn't even visit some of the Bosnian club teams' European matches, to see if there was a possible reserve in there.

- 3-5-2: I honestly believe that no other national team in the world uses this formation, and I think that speaks volumes. Instead of using a modern offensive formation that plays to our strengths, Ciro forced our playing squad into one he's been using since the 70s. From there we've had players like Ibricic and Salihovic playing as wing-backs.

- Individual Criticism: Ciro has not once in his tenure accepted any personal responsibility for a defeat or poor play. In fact, he hasn't even accepted collective responsibility, e.g. "the team needed to play harder." Instead he's had the ridiculous habit of arbitrarily singling out one player and then placing the entire load of the defeat on his shoulders. Nadarevic after Turkey is the best example... we kicked out one of the only three decent center-backs we have, which led to situations like conceding three goals to Slovenia. Last Saturday it was Misimovic. Yesterday it was Medunjanin.

- Player selection (i.e. Senijad Ibricic): Ciro's player selection has been extremely questionable. Above all forcing Samir Muratovic into the team at the expense of Miralem Pjanic. Keeping Vedad Ibisevic on the bench when he was the most in-form striker in the world also comes to mind... Vedo kept being criticized for doing nothing off the bench, finally started against Slovenia and exploded. Also, the fact that Senijad Ibricic is guaranteed a starting spot in every single game is comical. The only three players who should be guaranteed a spot are Dzeko, Misimovic and Spahic... Ibricic is simply not on that level.

- Senility and stubbornness: This has come up and time and time again, but here are just two recent examples. Not letting Emir Spahic (or anyone else) get a yellow card against Estonia. I understand when we were up by just one, but why not in the 85th minute when we were up by two? There are lots of reasons we lost yesterday, but the most immediate reason we conceded that goal was that we had Boris Pandza in place of Emir Spahic. And what about the substitutions in Lisbon? We were God-awful, and he only put in Muslimovic and Pjanic in the 80s?

- The Circus act: Why did Slovenia, a country that has traditionally played the role of our awkward little cousins in terms of football, qualify for their second world cup while we're going home again? Because Slovenia's FA, team and coaching staff are professional. Because they're organized. And the BiH team under Ciro has been anything but. Dzeko doesn't have room to sit down on the team bus due to all the politicians, journalists and associated ass kissers on board. Instead of practicing taking their corners, the players are wheeled around to film commercials to fill Ciro's pocketbook.


Bottom line is, no one can convince me that Ciro did anything special here and that we need him. Please don't tell me that we've never achieved this much before. First of all, we haven't really "achieved" anything. Second of all, the campaign came down to the last game twice before, in 2004 and 2006... whether it was called a play-off or not doesn't change much. Ciro, much like in 98, simply inherited an extremely talented group of players (Ibisevic, Dzeko, Salihovic and Misimovic were already there. Kodro brought back Spahic) and, with the least interference from the FA of any of our managers in the previous decade, did with them exactly what was expected. He beat Armenia and Estonia home and away. He beat Belgium at home. And he beat Belgium away, which was his only significant victory. Beyond that, our record against top level teams - the kind of teams that we will have to beat to qualify for anything - has been miserable. One point from six matches against Portugal, Turkey and Spain.

Thanks for the memories Ciro. And thank you for creating a "good atmosphere" in the team, even though it included a complete lack of organization and professionalism. In the grand scheme of things, with the FA on your back, you're only a small part of the problem. But you are a part of it, and I hope I never see you again.

Last edited by Džoni B. Dobar; November 19th, 2009 at 16:54.
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post #6 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 16:56
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I can agree that he didn't make the scouting himself, but he still called those players up. You might remember the media pressure when Medunjanin first was "discovered", Baka was coach and I think there was a update about Haris every day in the papers, we still didn't get him back then. We can say whatever we want about Ciros scouting, but in the last year (and a couple of months) we got these 3 very promising players, I can't remember last time that happend.
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post #7 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 17:41 Thread Starter
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To answer my own question...

Do I want him to stay? Mostly no and for two reasons. One, he is getting too old. Two, I think his coaching style is affective only short-term. I think players will start tuning him out possibly. So his best attribute, the way he motivates, may not be what it use to be.
Then there are the obvious, player selection questions and strategy questions. But the more I read it seems we played long ball in the second game totally because of the horrible field condition in Zenica.

In regards to his formation. I've been pretty accurate with my predictions. And I'll say it right now..if we go to a 4-2-3-1, or 4-1-2-1-2, or anything where we are playing with 4 defenders and one or two defensive mids, we are not going to beat Estonia. We are going to go back to the Blaz days where it seemed it was as hard to get a result against Estonia as Spain. Possibly worse.

Portugal, a nation with much more world-class skill upfront plays those kinds of "organized" formations, but they have the defenders and defensive players to keep the ball out and who can actually play football (look at their stats, they can do it well) and they have the world-class skill upfront to create despite this formation making it harder on the offensive players. But even they struggled.

You guys may be over-rating our offensive players. Pjanic is going to be world-class. Misimovic is pretty close to world class. And Dzeko will get there too. But aside from that, Salihovic, Ibricic and Ibisevic are just solid players. And that goes for the rest of our offensive players.

These guys did not score 7 against Estonia because our offensive players are unstoppable..they scored because there was plenty options forward..so if Dzeko didn't score, Ibricic can, if Misimovic didn't, Salihovic can. That was using our quantity of good offensive players to our strength.

But now, if we change things and start one or two more "defensive" guys, we only have 3-4 offensive players, we are set-up deeper..will be struggling to beat Estonia. I am 100% certain about this. We won't even look good out there. Will be trapped. Will be chasing other teams the whole game.

Everything is in the details if you thought we didn't look good against Portugal it could be that the strategy was wrong (and it was, but the field seemed to play the main role for that decision) and frankly, we played the best playoff-off team there was. Please do not look for issues where there are none..we will go back to wishing we had days like this.
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post #8 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 17:52 Thread Starter
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And why did Slovenia qualify?

Yes, because their Fa is better and there is less pressure on their players.
Because they aren't prevented from playing their game because of a shitty field.
Because they got possibly the easiest group so they could get themselves in this place to start with.
Then they got imo the 2nd best playoff-off opponent.
Maybe they had a bit luck that we didn't as well..especially in game 1?

Honestly, those are the only differences.

It is totally random why they are there and we are not...aside from some of the logical things that are up above.
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post #9 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 17:56
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Blazevic achieved a huge amount during these qualifications. Bosnian football is now on the map like never before, and that is largely down to him. He is a coach with a global reputation, and a big part of the reason why Pjanic, Medunjanin and Begovic are now playing for BiH.

And given the circumstances, I can't really see a better alternative

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post #10 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 17:57
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Slovenia got an easy group and a decent playoff opponent. Whenever they have had a tough qualifying group, they have struggled quite badly, as far as I know.

Bosnia had much less tough groups for Euro 2000 and World Cup 2002, but didn't take advantage.

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post #11 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 18:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BozniaN View Post
I can agree that he didn't make the scouting himself, but he still called those players up. You might remember the media pressure when Medunjanin first was "discovered", Baka was coach and I think there was a update about Haris every day in the papers, we still didn't get him back then. We can say whatever we want about Ciros scouting, but in the last year (and a couple of months) we got these 3 very promising players, I can't remember last time that happend.
Sliskovic was a total nightmare in terms of personnel. Don't forget, his was the era of the BiH line-up being stacked with the likes of Sergej Jakirovic, Dusan Kerkez and other luminaries of world football :rollani:

Meanwhile, Elvir Rahimic, Marko Topic, Medunjanin and many others were frozen out or forgotten about. Barbarez - who was played at centre-back by BS - and Salihamidzic retired. It was a reign of lunacy.

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post #12 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 18:49
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Slovenia has qualified for 3 major tournaments since independence, why would you think of them as awkward cousins??


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post #13 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 18:57
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We all know Ciro's strenghts and he has done a good job in the qualis. I personly want him to stay because if he was to go, savez would probably just apoint some clown.

Ciro has many weaknesses though:

- He is tactically an average coach at best imo
- While Quieroz (spelling?) travelled Europe to watch his players and even scout ours, Ciro was travelling between Zagreb and Sarajevo to shoot commercials and be the guest in a million tv shows
- He is too stubborn to give other players a chance. In the friendly games we had, there was enough time to test some new tactics and give other players a chance. The list is endless of how many players we have who deserved a shot but didn't get it under Ciro.
- He created a real circus around the NT. He wants the NT to be one with the media, fans and sponsors, which means sponsors and reporters travel in the same plane as the players ?! , fans and reporters stay in the same hotel as the players ?!, ... we all remember how Dzeko was forced to stand in the teambus because all the fat sponsors and reporters took all the seats ?!

There are probably more things I can think of now but I gotta run. I want him to stay though because he's probably the best we can get now.

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post #14 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 19:03
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Ero, I think the guy is talking about Slovenian football ever since 2002. Anyway, I agree that Ciro has old school tactics and really needs to change things. You can't beat teams like Portugal with 3-5-2 IMO and I expect Ljevakovic (if he can play as a good DM) to take Muratovic's place in the next qualifiying campaign.
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post #15 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 19:03
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Yes.

I never liked Ciro a lot, but the man has done a good job and he should stay. He knows how to create an atmosphere, he made us play good against weaker sides which is why we were this successful in the first place, he is semi-good manager and generally has no problems with players.

I think he puts 3-5-2 out there because we don't have a squad for 4-4-2 or 4-3-3. Our defense sucks and he knows it, our defensive midfielders are too old and he/we need to find someone next to Bajramovic immediately if we want to do anything in the next qualification round. That someone will be dijasporac obviously because we don't have anyone in our league right now to do the job.

And we need 1-2 very very good defenders as well.
Papac would be good, but I'm sure he won't play for us anymore.

But generally, Ciro improved our team not by quality of the play but by discipline. That is what our talented squad needs and that is what he brings. With 2-3 good players, we will be serious contenders.

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post #16 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 19:16
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If I were your FA () I'd say thanks and bring in a competent manager. Ciro did some good work gaining some momentum in your NT and bringing some excitement but he is not a long term solution. He did his job well, but in my opinion, with him it can only go downwards.

How serious of a candidate is Halihodzic? Honestly, I don't see too many quality foreign managers jumping to take the BiH job, more because of the politics involved in the sport, but I still think it can be an attractive job for some good ex-YU managers
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post #17 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 20:20
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Quote:
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Slovenia has qualified for 3 major tournaments since independence, why would you think of them as awkward cousins??
Because they have never beaten us in their history. Because our teams have routinely dominated them in head-to-head encounters on both the club and international level. Because their talent pool has never been as deep as ours. Because it's an objective fact that the vast majority of the players in their current starting XI wouldn't have a place in ours. Because 95% of objective observers in world football would choose Dzeko/Ibisevic ahead of Dedic/Novakovic. Because Bosnian society has always been more focused on football than Slovenian society. Because their qualifying over us is therefore a surprise that needs to be explained rather than brushed away as predictable.
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post #18 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 20:34
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Everyone is saying we don't really have the players for 4 defenders at the moment. We do, it's just that one of them isn't playing. Spahic, Papac, Nadarevic and Jahic are perfectly good for a four-man back-line. Of course, one of them isn't playing. But my point is that the reason for this isn't that we just don't have the talent or are absolutely limited at that position, but the systematic stuff that I keep mentioning - the stuff that a country like Slovenia has figured out and we haven't. Then again, that just leaves us with the question of what we can do about that. And the answer is... I have no clue
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post #19 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 20:50
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Jahic-Nadarevic-Spahic-Papac back line would be a disaster every game. Ciro is playing 7 defensive players and we still can't hold on against better teams. 4 + Rahimic and Muratovic would only invite our opponents to score more goals.

We are clueless when opposition comes from the center and when we have to play one on one, because we really lack quality back in defense.

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post #20 of 183 (permalink) Old November 19th, 2009, 20:55 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenk Reykart View Post
Jahic-Nadarevic-Spahic-Papac back line would be a disaster every game. Ciro is playing 7 defensive players and we still can't hold on against better teams. 4 + Rahimic and Muratovic would only invite our opponents to score more goals.

We are clueless when opposition comes from the center and when we have to play one on one, because we really lack quality back in defense.


It's simply not a question of is there enough defenders/defensive mids..because you don't have to be a nuclear physicist to figure out that our offensive talent is so much better than our defensive. So adding more of those guys is just going to make it more difficult to play a sound team game. Plus it makes it more difficult for our offensive players to succeed.
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