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post #17781 of 17792 (permalink) Old April 8th, 2019, 15:05
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excellent post, Montedia
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post #17782 of 17792 (permalink) Old April 8th, 2019, 17:13
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excellent post, Montedia
Grazie mille/Tausand danke

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post #17783 of 17792 (permalink) Old April 8th, 2019, 17:34
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nagyon szivesen
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post #17784 of 17792 (permalink) Old April 8th, 2019, 18:20
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Firstly, the Moorish conquest of Iberia was Arab rather than exclusively Muslim, but the fact remains that the Islamic presence in Europe far predates any concept of the nation state, which is a nineteenth-century construct. Plus, the Balkan region and its languages, cultures and customs are partly a product of (Turkish-)Islamic culture; the idea that there is some kind of neat separation between the two is not really tenable.

Secondly, you have to ask yourself why pop culture in the West is dominated by socially liberal (rather than left-wing) narratives. Broadly speaking, the reason is that over a number of decades popular adherence to Christianity has all but collapsed. The 'Western liberal values' you cite are broadly antithetical to Christianity: it is difficult if not impossible to have both simultaneously. You cannot realistically be virtue-signalling your LGBTQI+ credentials and at the same time swearing allegiance to the teachings of Jesus Christ as codified in the Bible.
I agree with your first point although I'm not talking about Spain, and I agree that our traditions and culture in BiH certainly do overlap significantly, all the more reason to respect the differences while celebrating the similarities.

Second point, I also agree about the clash of Western liberal values with Christianity, though there is significant overlap here also and there is doctrinal justification for the clear separation of Church and State, this is not the case with some others. This is a huge difference and one of the main reasons the Church has a lot less influence in policy in Christian countries while Islam dominates laws in Muslim countries.

Though I disagree with your assessment of the leftist bias in media, academia, pop culture, institutions and the arts, it is not confined to a "socially liberal bias", it is overwhelmingly a left-wing bias dominated by calls for government to ban speech, redistribute more, take more property, impose more quotas because "diversity", they demand more rights be sacrificed and more people be forced to conform to the narrative lest they be branded a "bigot", "islamophobe", "fascist" etc. by the triggered mob and the MSM activists that enable them. This has nothing to do with them being socially liberal.

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Re: the 'open borders', this is again a failure of the Western population to adhere to Christian values. On the one hand, they are not going forth and multiplying, meaning that they are literally depopulating themselves. On the other, when a mixture of refugees and economic migrants from wars their globalist elites have directly profited from come to plug the chasms in their tax bases, they are met with most unchristian scorn by what Trump would doubtless term the 'loser' segments of society. Time and time again, these segments prefer to shoot the messenger rather than confront their globalist elites.
I think it is, like most things, primarily a failure of government and the culture that politicians gravitate to for political gain, and given that the culture is overwhelmingly leftist this is what we expect.

So just off the top of my head, they've forced women into the workforce and stigmatised those who wanted to be housewives, they force feed you-go-girlism to impressionable young women telling them they can ride the cock carousel till they're 35 and brag just like a man (then they start collecting cats), they've emasculated men starting at preschool with SJW toxic masculinity nonsense, they've imposed massive nanny states that impoverish the taxpayer while creating legions of dole junkies, the family court laws are gynocentric and disincentivise men to marry, the divorce rates have been shooting sky-high, more people are born to single mothers (who don't need no man but need my taxes to support them), they've forced millions of people into shitty state built boxes that litter every town here, they've destroyed economic incentives and forced MILLIONS to flee to the West. I'm forgetting at least a couple more dozen ways these policies have been detrimental to western birthrates. And that's just birthrates. I also have to acknowledge the birth control pill here, no more horny Catholics with 13 kids.

So now the central planners whose dumbass policies have caused the mess in the first place are telling us that importing millions of Arabs will solve our problems and sending men with guns to arrest us if we should happen to disagree.

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In any event, the numbers we are talking about are a drop in the ocean: 1-2m people entering a 500m+ single market are not going to change anything much, particularly when most of them will end up being deported or going home of their own volition. They are not going to solve Europe's demographic problems.
Probably not.
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Finally, Croatia and Serbia are right next door to each other and have proven more than capable of slaughtering each other with wild abandon down the centuries. Relatively homogeneous populations are no insulation against stupidity.
Homogeneous populations help build a national identity, one of the reasons BiH doesn't have one. The French and English have slaughtered each other plenty, too.
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post #17785 of 17792 (permalink) Old April 16th, 2019, 13:44
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I agree with your first point although I'm not talking about Spain, and I agree that our traditions and culture in BiH certainly do overlap significantly, all the more reason to respect the differences while celebrating the similarities.

Second point, I also agree about the clash of Western liberal values with Christianity, though there is significant overlap here also and there is doctrinal justification for the clear separation of Church and State, this is not the case with some others. This is a huge difference and one of the main reasons the Church has a lot less influence in policy in Christian countries while Islam dominates laws in Muslim countries.

Though I disagree with your assessment of the leftist bias in media, academia, pop culture, institutions and the arts, it is not confined to a "socially liberal bias", it is overwhelmingly a left-wing bias dominated by calls for government to ban speech, redistribute more, take more property, impose more quotas because "diversity", they demand more rights be sacrificed and more people be forced to conform to the narrative lest they be branded a "bigot", "islamophobe", "fascist" etc. by the triggered mob and the MSM activists that enable them. This has nothing to do with them being socially liberal.


I think it is, like most things, primarily a failure of government and the culture that politicians gravitate to for political gain, and given that the culture is overwhelmingly leftist this is what we expect.

So just off the top of my head, they've forced women into the workforce and stigmatised those who wanted to be housewives, they force feed you-go-girlism to impressionable young women telling them they can ride the cock carousel till they're 35 and brag just like a man (then they start collecting cats), they've emasculated men starting at preschool with SJW toxic masculinity nonsense, they've imposed massive nanny states that impoverish the taxpayer while creating legions of dole junkies, the family court laws are gynocentric and disincentivise men to marry, the divorce rates have been shooting sky-high, more people are born to single mothers (who don't need no man but need my taxes to support them), they've forced millions of people into shitty state built boxes that litter every town here, they've destroyed economic incentives and forced MILLIONS to flee to the West. I'm forgetting at least a couple more dozen ways these policies have been detrimental to western birthrates. And that's just birthrates. I also have to acknowledge the birth control pill here, no more horny Catholics with 13 kids.

So now the central planners whose dumbass policies have caused the mess in the first place are telling us that importing millions of Arabs will solve our problems and sending men with guns to arrest us if we should happen to disagree.


Probably not.

Homogeneous populations help build a national identity, one of the reasons BiH doesn't have one. The French and English have slaughtered each other plenty, too.
Firstly, the separation of church and state is something which is historically very new in the Christian world. In fact, even today there are numerous European countries which have an official religion sanctified by an official state church (the UK and Denmark are two which come to mind); Sweden and Norway were officially protestant countries until this century.

Conversely, in the Islamic world...there is no church. (This is something which is extremely hard for most people in the West to understand because their understanding of religion is inseparable from the political and bureaucratic power historically wielded by these organisational entities.) You could say there there is a slight exception for the minority Shia sect, but even that is stretching it a bit. The nearest 'church' equivalent was historically the scholarly 'ulema' class, but they had very little power vis ŕ vis secular politicians.

Whether or not Islam has a significant impact on legal policy largely depends on which countries you are talking about. The largest OIC country by population is Indonesia, which is a secular republic; Turkey, which is the most culturally influential, is also a secular republic. Kazakhstan and Saudi Arabia have similar populations but entirely different cultures and legal systems. In fact, whether or not a country has a Muslim majority will not necessarily tell you a whole lot about it: is Albania more similar to Croatia or Senegal?

Secondly, re: the 'culture that politicians gravitate to for political gain', the key question is one of causation. In other words, you have to ask yourself why the ideas that you enumerate find such a receptive audience in key Western countries, but not so much elsewhere.

It can't just be because these ideas are 'leftist', because many of them are strongly supported by 'rightist' politicians and parties, too. One telling example: it was a Conservative administration which passed same-sex marriage legislation in the UK, and it was a CDU government that allowed a free vote on the same issue in Germany. Indeed, there is a consensus around this issue which cannot be explained by your reasoning, but which can definitely be accounted for by an apathy towards or even dislike of certain religious values.

Finally, a strong national identity is simply not contingent on ethnic or religious homogeneity: the US, Australia, Russia, Indonesia, South Korea, India and Turkey are profoundly nationalist countries which are nevertheless characterised by at least one type of diversity.

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post #17786 of 17792 (permalink) Old April 16th, 2019, 17:55
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Firstly, the separation of church and state is something which is historically very new in the Christian world. In fact, even today there are numerous European countries which have an official religion sanctified by an official state church (the UK and Denmark are two which come to mind); Sweden and Norway were officially protestant countries until this century. I'm talking about laws being derived from scripture.
That doesn't detract from my point, Croatia is 98% Christian yet abortion is perfectly legal. The Church has very little influence on policy. I'm not sure what your point is.
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Conversely, in the Islamic world...there is no church. (This is something which is extremely hard for most people in the West to understand because their understanding of religion is inseparable from the political and bureaucratic power historically wielded by these organisational entities.) You could say there there is a slight exception for the minority Shia sect, but even that is stretching it a bit. The nearest 'church' equivalent was historically the scholarly 'ulema' class, but they had very little power vis ŕ vis secular politicians.Whether or not Islam has a significant impact on legal policy largely depends on which countries you are talking about.

Quote:
The largest OIC country by population is Indonesia, which is a secular republic; Turkey, which is the most culturally influential, is also a secular republic. Kazakhstan and Saudi Arabia have similar populations but entirely different cultures and legal systems. In fact, whether or not a country has a Muslim majority will not necessarily tell you a whole lot about it: is Albania more similar to Croatia or Senegal?
You sound like Reza Aslan, it's all about culture, ignore the direct commands in scripture and the schools of jurisprudence who all agree. Well no, if you're trying to argue that Christian doctrine has as much influence on laws in Christian countries as Islam does in Islamic ones, that will be difficult but I'm all ears..


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Secondly, re: the 'culture that politicians gravitate to for political gain', the key question is one of causation. In other words, you have to ask yourself why the ideas that you enumerate find such a receptive audience in key Western countries, but not so much elsewhere.
The (imperfect) Western system of free enterprise and social liberty has created the greatest and most prosperous civilisation in the history of mankind. But good times create weak men and weak men create bad times. We're seeing the decay of the West thanks to decades of progressive policies and the constant growth of the administrative state in scope and power.

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It can't just be because these ideas are 'leftist', because many of them are strongly supported by 'rightist' politicians and parties, too. One telling example: it was a Conservative administration which passed same-sex marriage legislation in the UK, and it was a CDU government that allowed a free vote on the same issue in Germany. Indeed, there is a consensus around this issue which cannot be explained by your reasoning, but which can definitely be accounted for by an apathy towards or even dislike of certain religious values.
Some ideas, such as redistribution of stolen property, censorship, speech codes, institutional racism and collective rights have been common to both far right and far left regimes. The line gets really fuzzy there, we're talking about two forms of government placed on opposite ends of the spectrum despite being nearly identical in their idea of what the proper role of government is in society. The results were nearly identical, too.

But the danger to Western values today is coming from the self proclaimed leftists. Especially in academia and the Arts.

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Finally, a strong national identity is simply not contingent on ethnic or religious homogeneity.
I didn't say it was, but it helps.
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post #17787 of 17792 (permalink) Old June 16th, 2019, 04:08
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Big names attend Bosnian wedding of Emir Ganić (son of former Bosnian politician Ejup Ganić) and Irma Lugušić (daughter of Enver Lugušić - a former player and goalkeeping coach) including Ćiro Blažević, Elvir Bolić, Mehmed Baždarević, Edin Džeko.

https://www.klix.ba/magazin/showbiz/...dine/190615074









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"Imam osjećaj da postoje ljudi koji stalno gledaju u sat kad će nestati Bosna i Hercegovina, to traje predugo. A ne znaju da oni imaju satove, a BiH ima vrijeme." - Haris Silajdžić (6.12.2017).
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post #17788 of 17792 (permalink) Old July 9th, 2019, 11:41
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I stumbled upon this article from March 1999 by independent.

An interesting read:

Football: Scotland tie postponed as Bosnia grounded

Mark Burton
Friday 26 March 1999 01:02

SCOTLAND'S EURO 2000 qualifier against Bosnia at Ibrox on Saturday has been postponed because of the disruption caused to travel from the Balkan region by the Nato air strikes on Serbia.

The Bosnians had been scheduled to fly to Glasgow today from Sarajevo, which is close to the Serbian border. But last night they were denied permission from Nato to depart for Scotland this morning.

There was confusion earlier in the day when a draft fax was sent in error by Uefa, European football's governing body, saying that the game was postponed. The Scottish Football Association immediately issued a denial, pointing out the error by Uefa as a decision had not been taken. However, in the evening confirmation of the postponement was faxed through.

The SFA's spokesman, Andy Mitchell, confirming that the game had been called off, said: "Circumstances are completely outside and beyond our control. It is too early to say what our plans are now. The players were due to depart after the game on Saturday and then return on Sunday for the match with the Czech Republic.

"Craig Brown [Scotland's coach] is disappointed by the news and the circumstances but he now wants to focus solely on preparing for the Parkhead match on Wednesday.

"That is an important Euro 2000 qualifying game in itself so we cannot immediately address the matter of when the Bosnia match can be rescheduled."

A date of 18 August has already been mooted, but Mitchell stressed that was not at the SFA's suggestion.

In a formal SFA statement they expanded on the background to a dramatic afternoon, explaining the Bosnians' efforts to make the fixture.

It explained that the charter flight carrying the Bosnian team was unable to depart from Sarajevo airport. "In light of recent developments, the Bosnian FA made concerted efforts to arrange a flight, but were unfortunately unable to do so due to the air exclusion zone in the region," the statement said. "The circumstances are obviously completely outside the Association's control. All tickets will remain valid for the rearranged fixture on a date to be confirmed."

Because of the current political situation in the Balkans, Bosnia has closed it air space for all civil flights. Velid Imamovic, head of international affairs at the Bosnian FA, said: "Nato have told us we cannot travel as they cannot guarantee our safety. It is extremely disappointing but when Nato say no, they mean no."

The Balkan crisis is having a wide-ranging effect on Euro 2000. The FA of Ireland is considering asking Uefa for a replay of their Euro 2000 qualifier against Yugoslavia if other teams in Group Eight do not now have to play games in Belgrade, where the Republic were beaten 1-0 in November.

Ireland's qualifier against Macedonia, scheduled to take place in Skopje on Saturday, was called off hours before the Nato air strikes began. Yugoslavia's home games against Croatia, also on Saturday, and Macedonia, next Wednesday, have been postponed on Uefa's orders and if the troubles in Kosovo continue they might be told to replay them in neutral territory.

The FAI think nations yet to visit Yugoslavia would have an unfair advantage if their hosts were told to play subsequent "home" matches in another country. "If Yugoslavia have to play some of their home matches at neutral venues Ireland, having played in Belgrade, may well make a case for a re-fixture," said the FAI's spokesman, Brendan McKenna. "No formal or concrete proposal has been put forward as yet but it's in the background and it will be watched by the association."

The Republic's manager, Mick McCarthy, said the way things had transpired he was "absolutely delighted" that the Macedonia match had been postponed. "But I'm disappointed in one way," he said. "We wanted to play, we had a full squad and it was a good opportunity."

Yugoslavia, Croatia, Ireland and Macedonia are on six points at the top of the group, with the outsiders Malta still to register a point. Yugoslavia have maximum points from just two games played and are favourites to qualify for the finals as the group winners as their main rivals have all played one match more.

Ireland are awaiting confirmation that their re-arranged visit to Macedonia, who beat McCarthy's team in the qualifiers for the 1998 World Cup, will go ahead on 9 October.


https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...d-1083120.html
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"Ovaj pristup je možda dovoljan za mađarsku ligu, ali je ovo ipak evropska utakmica".- Thomas Doll (23.7.2015).

"Imam osjećaj da postoje ljudi koji stalno gledaju u sat kad će nestati Bosna i Hercegovina, to traje predugo. A ne znaju da oni imaju satove, a BiH ima vrijeme." - Haris Silajdžić (6.12.2017).
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post #17789 of 17792 (permalink) Old July 10th, 2019, 21:39
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makes sense

NATO aircraft and cruise missiles were flying all over Bosnia en route to strike and drop payloads over Serbian towns & cities in 99

A civilian airliner over our airspace could have easily become collateral. Not to mention that Serbia also foolishly sent Mig-29s to bomb Tuzla air base only for two of their aircraft to be promptly shot down by NATO F-16s which essentially made BiH airspace one of the battlegrounds of that war.

Kapetan Gradascevic - Dragon of Bosnia - Never Forget

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Uprising_(1831%E2%80%9332)
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