Gurovic tatoo....! - Xtratime Community
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post #1 of 252 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 09:58 Thread Starter
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Gurovic tatoo....!

So what do u think about it??

He cant go anymore in CRO & BiH 4 now.......im not sure what the situation in euro or goodyear league....can he play or not...booo...

Last edited by Tok87; December 10th, 2004 at 13:44.
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post #2 of 252 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 12:01
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Well, I don't know actually. I can understand Croatians, why they don't like his tatoo.

But are you completely sure, that this issue deserves its own thread in Slovenian forum?

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post #3 of 252 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 12:08
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Yeah? I was wondering about that too.

I still say a man should decide himself what he sees fit to put on his body and no government should be allowed to mingle IMO.

And as to Draza's past, I think a lot can be argued, although I'm sure the Slovenian forum isn't the place for that.
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post #4 of 252 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 18:56 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by OAnimal
But are you completely sure, that this issue deserves its own thread in Slovenian forum?
Hmmm..why not...after i heard Vilfan who said, that he hope, that also SLO will do the same as CRO & BiH......
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post #5 of 252 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 18:58
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It's all just a cheap political gimmick from the Croatian/Bosnian side, nothing else. I hope the Slovenians have more sense than that.
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post #6 of 252 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 18:58 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Drulo

I still say a man should decide himself what he sees fit to put on his body and no government should be allowed to mingle IMO.
Well...actually yes....but hes a sport star...a lot of young ppl are watching him....and hes a star 2 them.....

Imagine Klose or Ballack or Nowicki with a face of Hitler on his shoulder....or with a sign of nacism....
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post #7 of 252 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 19:08
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Except that your analogy is 100% flawed. Hitler and Draza as well as nazism and the chetniks cannot be compared - they were on opposing sides after all. But, that is a discussion for the history forum. Rather than contiuing that debate, I'll leave you with an interesting interview with a pretty famous Slovene:
http://www.vreme.com/arhiva_html/460/09.html
http://www.vreme.com/arhiva_html/461/11.html
http://www.vreme.com/arhiva_html/462/08.html
I'm sure you can find out more on the subject if you're truly interested about objective history.
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post #8 of 252 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 19:10
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Yup.. good comparison, except for the fact that mihajlovic was no hitler, fought against hitler, and was awarded by the United States with the highest possible award for any foreigner for his actions during WW2.

I understand why display of "chetnicism" is not tolerated/offensive in Croatia Bosnia and even Slovenia because unfortunately many people committed crimes in the name of "chetnicism" but it tires me when people compare this man to fascists such as Hitler, Saddam, Bin Laden etc

Let the man have his tattoo.. and laugh about if for all I care, or tell him to wear a long sleeved shirt under his jersey.
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post #9 of 252 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 23:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrija PFC
Rather than contiuing that debate, I'll leave you with an interesting interview with a pretty famous Slovene:
http://www.vreme.com/arhiva_html/460/09.html
http://www.vreme.com/arhiva_html/461/11.html
http://www.vreme.com/arhiva_html/462/08.html
I'm sure you can find out more on the subject if you're truly interested about objective history.
With all the respect, those articles are crap. First of all, history is always subjective. It depends on your viewpoint all the way. Neither of us was probably alive at the time of 2nd world war, so we cannot know about what was happening there from our experience, but only from what we are told by people, who again, have different viewpoints of the things that happened. Secondly, I never heard about this Bajt guy. Which could may even be my fault, given that I don't follow politics that much, but on the other hand, I am sure that our right wing parties would love to throw the claims from these articles into the face of former communists, if they were anywhere near credibility. Thirdly, it says that this guy was in Rome during the 2nd world war. So how exactly did he know what is happening in Jugoslavia?

Back to the issue. I've heard many contradictional stories about Draza Mihajlovic, so basically I can't make an objective judgement about his deeds. But since chetniks and ustashes fought many bloody battles during the WW2, I can understand why Croatians don't want to let a person with Mihajlovic tatoo enter their country. Whether this is right or wrong, I have no idea - maybe it could be solved with monte's proposal, so that he would wear long sleeved shirt during the matches (where the fvck are Croatian posters when you need them? )

Whether he should be banned from entering Slovenia, again, I have no idea. For one, Mihajlovic didn't do any harm to our nation and given that some Slovenians, who took part of after-war executions still live here, I guess a person, who wears a tatoo of one (supposed) criminal can make little or no harm at all...


BTW, monte, is that you on that pic on the left of your post?

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post #10 of 252 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 23:23
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Bloody hell..

Half our country was destroyed in the name of people like Mihajlovic. This happened just over a decade ago!! Do you not see why Croatian people do not want to see crap like that anymore?

Arguing whether Mihajlovic was good or bad is besides the point.

The people are just getting over recent events, the last thing they need is for a seljak like Gurovic to come to Croatia parading a supposed Serb war "hero."

Plus, when you look at it, it is politically consistent with everything that has been happening in Croatia.. Recently a spomenik of Francetic was taken down for example..

I was against the banning just to see whether he had the balls to come to Croatia because he already failed to show up once before. You can't cover it up because the people still know it is there.. Especially now with all the headlines..
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post #11 of 252 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 23:29
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Why are they crap? I'm not one to sugercoat chetnik history nor do I want a "chetnik mythology" to supercede the "partisan mythology" like some do but we need objectivity. I've gone on about the subject at length before and do not want to again nor is this the place for it. Bajt is (was, he is dead) the most regarded Slovene economist of the past century btw.

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But since chetniks and ustashes fought many bloody battles during the WW2, I can understand why Croatians don't want to let a person with Mihajlovic tatoo enter their country.
I can understand that as well (sidenote: most of the chetnik units in Croatia were in fact not under Mihailovic's command) and I can understand why it can raise emotions, but comparisons with Hitler, Pavelic et al. are completely out of line and the whole thing about not letting him into the country is, as I said, a cheap political gimmick. Personally I just think the Croatian government (HDZ) is trying to flex some nationalistic muscle b/c they have already conceeded on other nationalistic issues (like the Hague), and in Bosnia it is just trying to get people's minds off other burning issues.

I mean, think about this: maybe they should ban all of Partizan as a team because the communists (partisans) did their fair share of killing and oppressing during and after the war, and I'm sure many would find the name offensive. I mean, why not outlaw the red star as they did in Hungary?
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post #12 of 252 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 23:31
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Half our country was destroyed in the name of people like Mihajlovic.
Really? People like Mihajlovic? Half a country destroyed in the name of a football player?

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Arguing whether Mihajlovic was good or bad is besides the point.
It sure is. I mean, this discussion has nothing to with football.
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post #13 of 252 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 04:31
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Originally Posted by dinamovac11
Plus, when you look at it, it is politically consistent with everything that has been happening in Croatia.. Recently a spomenik of Francetic was taken down for example..
ha ha ha .. thats why all the croatian people have been crying over all of their statues of croatian facists being taken down ?



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post #14 of 252 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 06:00
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Yup.. good comparison, except for the fact that mihajlovic was no hitler, fought against hitler, and was awarded by the United States with the highest possible award for any foreigner for his actions during WW2.
Of all the history i have read im pretty sure that Draza and the Cetniks were on Hitlers side since they opposed communism and the Partizans, but thats still no reason to subject someone from entering a country just because of his tatoo look at all the CSKA fans they have tons of nazi and hitler tatoos and i dont see anyone stoping them from going to another country.Its a democracy and if you want to live in a democracy then let people be free he is not hurting anyone with a tatoo.Then again what would happen in the NBA if some white player had a tatoo of the KKK im sure they would tell him to cover it or else.
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post #15 of 252 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 09:16
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I think the Croatian government had the right to ban Gurovic from entering if they feel so strongly about it, but saying it's because Draza was a fascist is utter stupidity and really something a moron can swallow and believe in. According to many Croats, their biggest issue in the recent years was with communism which apparently held them in a country they didn't want to be in.

Fair enough, but as I think Andrija pointed out, then why not ban the whole Partizan club. Or Red Star? The reasons are obvious...

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post #16 of 252 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 10:01
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Originally Posted by Andrija PFC
Why are they crap? I'm not one to sugercoat chetnik history nor do I want a "chetnik mythology" to supercede the "partisan mythology" like some do but we need objectivity.
I perfectly understand that and I didn't judge your post in any way, I only judged those articles. As I said, they were written by a guy, who was situated in Rome and didn't see what was really happening in Jugoslavia, but he could only write his book based on what other people told him. Secondly, I didn't hear anyone in Slovenia talk about this guy or his book - although I am pretty sure, that the right wing parties could find his work quite pleasent in their witchhunt against the ex communists. And finally, the article imposes that this guy was contradictory himself - claiming he was supporting Slovenian independence while being Jugoslavija-oriented...

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post #17 of 252 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 13:50
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Originally Posted by Ambis
Of all the history i have read im pretty sure that Draza and the Cetniks were on Hitlers side since they opposed communism and the Partizans, but thats still no reason to subject someone from entering a country just because of his tatoo look at all the CSKA fans they have tons of nazi and hitler tatoos and i dont see anyone stoping them from going to another country.Its a democracy and if you want to live in a democracy then let people be free he is not hurting anyone with a tatoo.Then again what would happen in the NBA if some white player had a tatoo of the KKK im sure they would tell him to cover it or else.
Draza was NOT on Hitler's side. Mihajlovic hated Hitler, unlike Pavelic and the Bosnian mufti who s*cked Hitler's balls. You cannot find a pic of Mihajlovic meeting Hitler.. or anything like that, it's just false..

Dinamovac, wearing a longsleeved shirt sure doesn't change the fact that the tattoo is there butthe player does not directly confront the audience with it so I'd say big deal. Still, like I said, I get why they banned him.

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post #18 of 252 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 18:16
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The issue is not Draza and should not be directed in this way since it will end nowhere. The issue is a player, Milan Gurovic, and why he should or should not be banned from playing in Croatia, BiH or wherever Draza's picture is considered to be offensive.

First of all, what Gurovic did is an atmost stupidity and mockery of Draza Mihailovic. Second, Gurovic did it to make a political statement with an intention to provoke everyone who regard Mihailovic as a political or national enemy. Gurovic is known for his nationalistic and chauvinistic public expresions and this was not the only time he was involved in controversy regarding his behavior. For that, he is the one who has to bear consequences and not to relay the whole naton and political establishment to deal with his psychopaty. I do not see the reason why politicians, media or public in Serbia have to be involved and try to justify such a bizare display of political and national attitude. Unless they see Gurovic's behavior as something normal whereas the decisions of Croatian and BiH governements as something hostile and unjust. I could care less what that idiot puts on his arms or forhead - the shame is his. But I can also see why Croats and Bosniaks do not want him in their countries.
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post #19 of 252 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 18:30
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Originally Posted by Ben Akiba

First of all, what Gurovic did is an atmost stupidity and mockery of Draza Mihailovic.
Why ? becuase you are too scared to get a tatoo of Mihajlovic ? too scared to see what other people what do or say ? Thats p*ssy, if Gurovic wants a tatoo of Draza Mihajlovic, who is anyone else to criticize him over what he wants to have on his arm ?

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post #20 of 252 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 18:33
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Well apart from that I think that tatoos are stupid in general...it's kitsch. Next thing we'll have players tatooing beli andjeo or whatever...
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