VAR, what is it good for? - Page 3 - Xtratime Community
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post #41 of 59 (permalink) Old September 18th, 2019, 21:43 Thread Starter
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Atletico - Juve most obvious handball penalty ever not given

what's the point of having VAR if it is not used?

Big games are easy than the other games, unfortunately. Every times we have the control the games, under the control the games, during the games we had the some possibilities, some big chances, some big okazyons, something like that but what can I do, sometimes? And….it’s the football, that’s the football, something happened. Everything is something happened. - Fatih Terim
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post #42 of 59 (permalink) Old September 18th, 2019, 21:47
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Juve already owns VAR?

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post #43 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 03:11
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Absolutly nothing....We have been using it in the portuguese league for a couple years now and i didnt see any improvement to the benefit of the game so far, on the contrary there have been many embarassing decisions...since it has been adopted in uefa games it is the same...watching how a var can not see 2 leipzig players offside, 1 of which about 2m ahead, makes you wonder what kind of people are chosen to be var
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post #44 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 05:51
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post #45 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 08:06
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It is the best thing that happened to football since they changed the backpass to the keepers rule.

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post #46 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 09:12
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It is the best thing that happened to football since they changed the backpass to the keepers rule.
https://www.villarrealusa.com/2019/8...ining-football

As it stands, there's a consensus that VAR is killing football.

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post #47 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 10:56
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absolutely nothin'

adds like 5 minutes to every game and ruins goal celebrations as everything must be checked first

refs are overusing it
I wonder if it would have been more succesful if it had been implemented under its original name: VAR and peace.

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post #48 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 12:00
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https://www.villarrealusa.com/2019/8...ining-football

As it stands, there's a consensus that VAR is killing football.
Consensus by who?

There is nothing close to a consensus when it comes to VAR. In either direction.

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post #49 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 12:21 Thread Starter
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from that article : At least in Spain (and I think elsewhere too) the TV images the VAR uses are shot at a speed of 25 frames per second. (h/t to @THE palmeraward on twitter for this analysis). So, each frame happens four-hundredths of a second apart. That may not sound like much, but when a player is—for instance—running at speed, and/or a player is swinging a foot at a ball, it can be important.

Consider an offside play. There are two questions—when does the passer actually strike the ball, and what is the position of the player at that point? How likely is it that one of the frames will be taken EXACTLY when the passer strikes the ball? (and how precisely could tell it is that frame, rather than the one before or after)?

Now consider the player running into space to receive a pass. Let’s say for sake of argument he’s running at 24km/h (Iñaki Williams is supposed to have been timed at 36km/h, so that’s not too bad). 24km/h is 400m/minute, or 6.67 meters per second (667 cm/sec). So, in that four-hundredths of a second between frames, a player could cover almost 27cm of ground. That is a lot.

So, there is a period of uncertainty as to when the ball is actually hit, and there is, therefore, a huge “error bar” in where a player actually is when that ball is hit—be it a striker running on to a pass, or a keeper diving off his line to save a penalty. But we’re being presented with these absolute “black-and-white” calls—the VAR shows DEFINITELY a striker’s boot was two or three centimeters in front of the defender, so it’s a clear offside!! That’s simply not so.

this is a very good point which I haven't even thought about ... 25 frames per sec indeed isn't enough to establish close offside calls

although the same argument applies for human eye too

Big games are easy than the other games, unfortunately. Every times we have the control the games, under the control the games, during the games we had the some possibilities, some big chances, some big okazyons, something like that but what can I do, sometimes? And….it’s the football, that’s the football, something happened. Everything is something happened. - Fatih Terim
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post #50 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 12:33
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The argument is silly Andy, all he is saying is that it is impossible to be 100% precise, so why even bothering to get as close as possible to that precision? It's almost like claiming that we cannot say the age of earth with exactly precision, therefore let's stick with the old system from the Bible and accept the 6000 years old.

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post #51 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 12:40 Thread Starter
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well it's not exactly silly to suggest that 50fps system would be much more precise in close offside decisions

but of course for broadcasters 50fps would be impractical

Big games are easy than the other games, unfortunately. Every times we have the control the games, under the control the games, during the games we had the some possibilities, some big chances, some big okazyons, something like that but what can I do, sometimes? And….it’s the football, that’s the football, something happened. Everything is something happened. - Fatih Terim
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post #52 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 13:27
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Sure, but that is an argument for the VAR, since it is expected that tecnological improvement will be added to the VAR, and not an argument against it like the author in the article tries to build (in fact, it is an overall silly article, with moronic arguments about the subjectivity of the goalkeeper position in a penalty kick, which make me wonder if her knows what is really subjective or objective in this case). For me, barring the human problem taking too long time for decisions , using VAR when they shouldn't, etc. the problem is communication. This year there was a game in the Brazilian cup, two players get a red after during the celebration fo the goal and the referee when to VAR. TV and fans in the stadiums were all thinking the VAR was about the cards, then the referee returns, disallow the goal because in the very begining of the play there was a foul that nobody was complaning. Why not having a system to indicate to everyone when and why the VAR is being used and why holding the communication between the VAR operators and the referee from press and clubs afterwards? This would certainly make easier for everyone to understand and judge the impact of VAR in the game.

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post #53 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 13:31 Thread Starter
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Sure, but that is an argument for the VAR, since it is expected that tecnological improvement will be added to the VAR, and not an argument against it like the author in the article tries to build (in fact, it is an overall silly article, with moronic arguments about the subjectivity of the goalkeeper position in a penalty kick, which make me wonder if her knows what is really subjective or objective in this case). For me, barring the human problem taking too long time for decisions , using VAR when they shouldn't, etc. the problem is communication. This year there was a game in the Brazilian cup, two players get a red after during the celebration fo the goal and the referee when to VAR. TV and fans in the stadiums were all thinking the VAR was about the cards, then the referee returns, disallow the goal because in the very begining of the play there was a foul that nobody was complaning. Why not having a system to indicate to everyone when and why the VAR is being used and why holding the communication between the VAR operators and the referee from press and clubs afterwards? This would certainly make easier for everyone to understand and judge the impact of VAR in the game.


so basically the goal was disallowed but 2 players were still sent off for celebrating that phantom goal?

only in Brazil ...

Big games are easy than the other games, unfortunately. Every times we have the control the games, under the control the games, during the games we had the some possibilities, some big chances, some big okazyons, something like that but what can I do, sometimes? And….it’s the football, that’s the football, something happened. Everything is something happened. - Fatih Terim
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post #54 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 13:39
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Yeah, and in this case, the referee didn't cancel the cards. There was also a game, VAR didn't help at all to determine if the ball crossed the line or not in pk during a game in the Brazilian Cup and it was really impossible to tell so the referee stuck with this first decision, of course, causing a lot of anger.

I remember another: corner kick. The attacking team misses the goal, the referee goes to VAR, so the fans celebrate, thinking it could only me a penalty happened somewhere (and the tv started to find a penalty in some player elsewhere), then the referee returns and calls offside (the ball didn't went straight to the player that finished, that is why in case you are wondering about an offside in a corner kick). So, he lost 3,4 minutes to decide the goal keeper had to take a offiside kick off instead of a normal kick off.

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post #55 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 14:25
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Here's my opinion. VAR is a good tool. But the individuals using the tool are unfortunately cowardly retards on too many occasions.

There should be a limit to when VAR is allowed. It should only be used when the ref has made an obvious error or missed an obvious infraction.

Using slowmotion when judging at the severity of tackles shouldn't be allowed either. And there should be a 30 second max limit to solve the issues.
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post #56 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 16:11
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Here's my opinion. VAR is a good tool. But the individuals using the tool are unfortunately cowardly retards on too many occasions.

There should be a limit to when VAR is allowed. It should only be used when the ref has made an obvious error or missed an obvious infraction.

Using slowmotion when judging at the severity of tackles shouldn't be allowed either. And there should be a 30 second max limit to solve the issues.
It seems to be working okay in EPL, which has precisely that criteria. It's not used too often, just for obvious mistakes in key situations.

There will always be disagreements and mistakes, but at least it's not as disruptive.

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post #57 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 19:40
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There are also lots of unnecessary complains. Like complains about offside when VAR actually got it correct in the Benfica game. People just want to see what they want to see because it is about their own club...

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post #58 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 21:45
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Originally Posted by Andy Christ View Post
Atletico - Juve most obvious handball penalty ever not given

what's the point of having VAR if it is not used?
Yeah, it's the second time against Juventus in six months that Atlético get calls against them. Not only Morata's disallowed goal in the first leg last season but also Chiellini's foul on Correa.

Bottom line is that VAR will never eliminate all errors out of football..

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post #59 of 59 (permalink) Old September 19th, 2019, 23:47
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They could actually implement something where besides a quick system of only "obvious errores" in key plays like that of EPL, teams can have one or two situations per game in which they can ask for a review.

The idea that everyone should see the replay too sounds good on paper, would likely be a mess in practice. First because it's slow and creates a spectacle, and second because it may create more polemical situations than it would solve, since a lot of the calls are ultimately extremely fine margins or even based on judgement.

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