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post #2061 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 14th, 2018, 19:02
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lol


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It's not just Real of course. There's also Barca.
It's about cognitive bias, my friend Pav. You are not free of it, I'm not free of it, and the video is even less free than the both of us
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post #2062 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 14th, 2018, 19:28
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This would mean they might miss the target altogether, which can hardly be seen as the keeper's merit. However, it's clear that some keepers might make strikers more nervous, but even that sometimes is less about their record with penalties and more about who they are -- i.e. Buffon is surely more of an an intimidating presence than Diego Alves, who has likely saved more penalties.

The biggest difference I think is the research, as Tigerheart mentioned. I just saw an interview with Goycoechea about Argentina in Italy 90', and it's very clear he had studied the takers. He even says he "decided" Brehme would aim to the to the side he did in the final, but that because of his great technique and record with FKs he assumed he would go for the upper corner, so he went there, but the ball went low, which ultimately prevented him for saving it.
Yeah, but that goes the other way too. See the last Brazilian cup final between Cruzeiro and Flamengo. Cruzeiro won in the pks and every player said they knew Muralha (cruzeiro keeper) always jumped to one side only and they take the other side without pressure.

The psychological pressure is not only a matter of fame (I think most takers will consider Diego Alves record more impressive than Buffon record and avoid trying to take panekas or such), but the keeper behavior. Taffarel for example, always said in the pk shot outs, this was even bigger and he would always try to avoid chosing a side, because even if he couldnt get the best kicks, the other players seeing him often getting closer the ball or going for the right side will start to try kicks more near the post or in the upper corner, increasing their chance to miss and also making them try a kick which they didnt pratice often. Obviously, the kicker also has tricks to mess with the keeper head, trying to make him jump before time, etc.

It is needed some talent and pratice to be a really good pk saver. You cannot resume football to the efficiency of the guy with the ball and iniciative. It became videogame and even Germans do not play the game with joysticks.

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post #2063 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 14th, 2018, 20:01
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Btw, just so that everyone understands, the amount of penalties a keeper has against himself in the entire career does not justify any kind of judgement whether he is good or bad at saving penalties. The number is way too small.
Well obviously one cannot make that kind of statement. It depends on the difference in success rate. Just so everyone understands.

Why on earth wouldn't there be difference in penalty saving ability since there are differences in every other aspect in football?

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post #2064 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 14th, 2018, 20:23
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Well obviously one cannot make that kind of statement. It depends on the difference in success rate. Just so everyone understands.
That does not make sense. Then a keeper who faces the second penalty in his career has a success rate of either 100% or 0%. But nobody would use it as an argument because the number is too small. The number is still too small at the end of a keeper's career to truly statistically prove anything regarding a penalty saving ability. It's very simple.

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Why on earth wouldn't there be difference in penalty saving ability since there are differences in every other aspect in football?
Because there is no one penalty saving ability per se. It is a combination of anticipation and reflexes on the line. Both are already judged by whether or not a keeper is better than another keeper. If it was practicable to the point of making a difference you could have keepers who save it most of the time. But that is not possible because it is not practicable. And that is because it simply depends on the shooter shooting it right or not.

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post #2065 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 14th, 2018, 20:53
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Tiger, this is no FIFA. Keepers pratice those skills to save pks as much (or maybe more) players pratice to take it. The number of PKs a keeper faces on his life is small on a game sittuation (they may get the data on pratice as well, because the tendencies are all there) but it is not something that can be ignored, hence most teams search for this data and apply on pk shoot out sittuations. It is was not luck that made Dida, Taffarel or Marcos be so decisive. It is pratice and study.

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post #2066 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 14th, 2018, 23:10
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I already agreed that certain skills apply and certain things can be studied. But nothing will change the fact that it is impossible to rate a keeper good or bad at penalty saving based on statistics due to the small number of instances (penalties) that can be taken into account. So no matter what, it is a subjective estimation (read: people's opinion) whether or not a keeper is good or bad at penalty saving.

We can discuss many things when it comes to football, but this is pretty much just a mathematical case study and if anyone ever got a glimpse into stochastic he/she understands that this is not for debate. It is a fact. 100-150 instances for whatever are absolutely irrelevant.

It reminds me of reading that the most dangerous job in the world is American president because 9% of all people who had the job have been killed during it.

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post #2067 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 14th, 2018, 23:13
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post #2068 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 14th, 2018, 23:35
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Tiger, if a keeper had 80 pks against him and save 9 and another had 81 and saved 35, you are not going to say that is subjective that one keeper is much better than the other at saving penalties. One thing is being unable to compare very different samples, but it is not always the case.

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post #2069 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 14th, 2018, 23:36
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It’s amazing Juventus and the Italian/Barcelona media managed to whine so much and campaign so hard that the club is forced to react to the ridiculous accusations. It's completely pathetic and disgusting. When Mourinho did that while at Real Madrid I was ashamed.
The Italian media must lick the arse of the Juventini because there are too many and they cannot be disappointed with a sentence like "the penalty was hardly a scandal" and not even a neutral sentence such as "tough luck for Juventus" (they could have used it for Sampdoria!).
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post #2070 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 14th, 2018, 23:43
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Tiger, if a keeper had 80 pks against him and save 9 and another had 81 and saved 35, you are not going to say that is subjective that one keeper is much better than the other at saving penalties. One thing is being unable to compare very different samples, but it is not always the case.
Exactly that is the truth, Joao. At the sample size of 80 whether or not it is 9 or 35 can totally be up to randomness.

If you have 80 million as sample size, the chance that randomness makes a 26 million difference is very unlikely.

Also both keepers will not have had the exact same 80 shooters against themselves, adding to the randomness.

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post #2071 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 14th, 2018, 23:43
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lmao

The saddest case of trying to stay relevant.
Relevant enough for your lot to continuously obssess/dream about matching what we achieved in 2010.
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lol hossam lol...i think your the coolest bro one of the few ppl i like in this world

now thats three rants lol

i love u bro. yr good people


Juventus were relegated to Serie B along with their reputation.
http://www.inter.it/en/news/46733
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post #2072 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 14th, 2018, 23:56
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It’s amazing Juventus and the Italian/Barcelona media managed to whine so much and campaign so hard that the club is forced to react to the ridiculous accusations. It's completely pathetic and disgusting.
juventus are desperate to win the CL. They want to win it to end a drought that has now exceeded 2 decades. They also want to prove that they can win a trophy without Italian referees as all rivals of juventus in Italy discredit their domestic wins. So juventus winning CL would help their club give more credibility to what they win domestically.

The late penalty awarded against them was a massive call, and juventus players, officials and fans are not used to calls going against them in delicate moments, it tends to be the opposite.. that is why they reacted like this.

ما أخذ بالقوة لا يسترد إلا بالقوة
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lol hossam lol...i think your the coolest bro one of the few ppl i like in this world

now thats three rants lol

i love u bro. yr good people


Juventus were relegated to Serie B along with their reputation.
http://www.inter.it/en/news/46733
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post #2073 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 15th, 2018, 03:13
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Champions League: Quarter finals

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Originally Posted by RahzeL View Post
It’s amazing Juventus and the Italian/Barcelona media managed to whine so much and campaign so hard that the club is forced to react to the ridiculous accusations. It's completely pathetic and disgusting. When Mourinho did that while at Real Madrid I was ashamed.


Show some humility Rahzy,come on now..
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post #2074 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 15th, 2018, 05:52
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It’s amazing Juventus and the Italian/Barcelona media managed to whine so much and campaign so hard that the club is forced to react to the ridiculous accusations. It's completely pathetic and disgusting. When Mourinho did that while at Real Madrid I was ashamed.
It is not only Juventus fans and Italian/Barcelona media who are whining... I think it was just about everyone except for Madrid fans and English media defending Oliver... below example of neutrals

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post #2075 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 15th, 2018, 05:58
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juventus are desperate to win the CL. They want to win it to end a drought that has now exceeded 2 decades. They also want to prove that they can win a trophy without Italian referees as all rivals of juventus in Italy discredit their domestic wins. So juventus winning CL would help their club give more credibility to what they win domestically.

The late penalty awarded against them was a massive call, and juventus players, officials and fans are not used to calls going against them in delicate moments, it tends to be the opposite.. that is why they reacted like this.
Even Madrid themselves went through a 30 year CL drought and now can't stop winning it... the most important thing is to at least keep trying, win other trophies to satisfy the fans and remain relevant...

David Endt: “Inter looks like a beautiful diva in blue and black, but in reality she is nothing more than a prostitute.”
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post #2076 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 15th, 2018, 08:17
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That does not make sense. Then a keeper who faces the second penalty in his career has a success rate of either 100% or 0%. But nobody would use it as an argument because the number is too small. The number is still too small at the end of a keeper's career to truly statistically prove anything regarding a penalty saving ability. It's very simple.
I didn't say it depends only on the success rate. But come on, you talked about statistics. If you have studied the subject even a little bit, you know it makes no sense to say that the kind of sample size goalkeepers face over their career (for a long career probably somewhere between 50-100) cannot possibly be statistically significant. It can, if there is enough difference in the success rate. That's how statistics work, and indeed it's quite simple. Enough difference in the success rate in a big enough sample, and we can say there's a statistically significant difference.

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Because there is no one penalty saving ability per se. It is a combination of anticipation and reflexes on the line. Both are already judged by whether or not a keeper is better than another keeper. If it was practicable to the point of making a difference you could have keepers who save it most of the time. But that is not possible because it is not practicable. And that is because it simply depends on the shooter shooting it right or not.
I don't get this logic at all. Why would keepers have to save penalties most of the time if it's practicable? If they get their save rate up from 10 to 20 percent by practicing, why wouldn't this show it's practicable? And it doesn't "simply depend" on the shot. You're thinking about this in yes/no manner when it's clearly more complex. Yes there are penalties that are unsaveable. And there are penalties whose savability is only down to luck. But there's also the third category where a good penalty saver can make a difference. To be sure, the difference probably isn't much. But I see no reason to believe it doesn't exist.

Finally, I don't agree that penalty saving only demands the same qualities as goalkeeping in general, either. I've heard many goalkeepers talk about the way they observe the shooter's body position, eyes, etc. to predict where they're going to shoot. This kind of a skill sounds to me penalty-specific. Of course there's limits to how much that can be done, but again it would be weird to think that no difference at all can be made.
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post #2077 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 15th, 2018, 08:19
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Exactly that is the truth, Joao. At the sample size of 80 whether or not it is 9 or 35 can totally be up to randomness.
Can, but mostly like is not.
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post #2078 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 15th, 2018, 09:48
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Even Madrid themselves went through a 30 year CL drought and now can't stop winning it... the most important thing is to at least keep trying, win other trophies to satisfy the fans and remain relevant...
If I look around me, here in Torontino, I really can't see faces of people who could be defined... "satisfied". They are angry/hungry. Scudetto is like a fly when compared to the CL steak. If you suggested Juventus might win a CL not before another 10 years it is possible they would become cannibals and eat you alive.
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post #2079 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 15th, 2018, 09:55
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Maybe those fans are out of touch... out of reality... Juve are the 10th richest club in Europe... reaching 2 finals ahead of far richer clubs is an achievement... not to mention dominating Italy with 6 consecutive Scudetti...and 3 consecutive doubles, not leaving a single trophy for other clubs to savour.... if Samp reached 2 Copa Italia finals in the last 3 years , taking out clubs like Juve and Napoli, but didn't win the final, wouldn't Samp fans be satisfied? Proud?

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post #2080 of 2133 (permalink) Old April 15th, 2018, 12:05
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Maybe those fans are out of touch... out of reality... Juve are the 10th richest club in Europe... reaching 2 finals ahead of far richer clubs is an achievement...
The fans are out of touch by definition. 9 on 10 would eat you alive for suggesting that winning no CL is acceptable.
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