Has Club Football Run It's Course? - Page 5 - Xtratime Community
View Poll Results: Has Club Football Run It's Course?
Yes 15 45.45%
No 18 54.55%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

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post #81 of 93 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2019, 18:37
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Originally Posted by camelface View Post
It was also nice to see Eastern European teams in the quarters and semis of the CL, a long past occurrence.

That was when EE countries had effective secret police and intelligence services.

Not bigotting

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post #82 of 93 (permalink) Old January 17th, 2019, 04:59
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you made a lame comment about Real Madrid who was in a dynasty period winning 4 of 5 CL and you call it "very lucky". Come on dude.

#gospurs
Very lucky doesn't mean undeserving. You don't think they were lucky to beat At. Madrid in a penalty shoot-out? You don't think Man Utd were lucky to beat Chelsea on penalty following a Terry slip? You don't think Liverpool had some luck to come back from 3 behind? You don't think Man Utd needed luck to score twice in 1 min? All those victories needed a lot of luck, yet they were also all deserved.

The point was not to put down Madrid. It was a counter-point to those who say the UCL is uncompetitive. Just because Madrid won 3 in a row, doesn't mean the competition was uncompetitive. MAdrid did not dominate. Other teams actually put up a good fight. Madrid needed luck to beat them, and in many cases, other teams pushed Madrid to their very best. This is a good thing. We want to see the best team challenged to their limits. This is a strong evidence of healthy competition.

Contrast this with say Madrid beating Reims 4-3, then signing Raymond Kopa, who helped them win the next 3 UCLs, making it 4 in a row, including beating Reims in the final again. This would be the equivalent of Madrid signing Diego Costa following the 20214 final, and Costa helping them beat At. Madrid again in 2016. That would be a massive sign of lack of competition.
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post #83 of 93 (permalink) Old January 17th, 2019, 13:46
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Red Star played defensively only in the final. Outside of that final we were one of the best teams in Europe offensively. Sorry, just had to point that out given that we'll never be given the credit we deserve. There's a reason our players finished 2nd and 3rd in the Ballon d'Or voting that year, second and third to a Frenchman who was probably a little bit favored by L'Equipe.

Also, for your best club football comment; in the truist sense of football creativity, yes, this probably is the fastest, most breathtaking football we've seen. But at the definition of sport, not just football, is also the element of competition, and once you've killed the competition element, the sport has run its course.

Why do I want to watch Juventus, Bayern, Real, Barcelona, Manchester City, and these artificial super clubs just wallop teams the entire season? Your counter-argument will be because those teams come head to head in the Champions League for the greatest clashes ever in history. That's fine if you're content to limit your entire football watching calendar for 1-2 months of the entire year.

Football, pre-Bosman rule and especially pre-Abrahmovich meant something more than just which oligarch or oil company can pay 11 players the most and put them out onto the pitch; there was much more competition involved as well as a larger element of cultural identification with the 11 on the pitch. That's why such incredible stories will never be forgotten, the last of which is possibly Mourinho's FC Porto. And that is why people consider the late 1990's the 'Golden Age of Football.'

Imagine having a Serie A title race between Roma, Lazio, Juventus, Milan, Inter, Napoli and Fiorentina (yes, at the same time) or having 2-3 clubs in Spain every season challenge the big two such as Valenica, Real Sociedad, Villareal, Sevilla, i.e. whoever is playing well that season? Imagine Werder Bremen (yes, that Werder Bremen who are crap) challenging the likes of Bayern and Dortmund once again. That is something much more entertaining, than what we currently have, and this is not even getting into the cultural element, where I believe, outside a few exceptions, club football has become a joke.
I don't disagree with you regarding the dominance of a handful of teams making for less exciting competitions. I was just pointing out the fact that there are other things in club football compensating for the relative lack of competition. I remember well the times when Serie A had exciting title fights with seven teams involved. The best players in the world played in the league. But for all that, the football was less entertaining than what we see now. More defensive, more cynical, more stoppages, less exciting. Ideally, of course we'd have great football AND parity in competition, but that's not going to happen in the foreseeable future.

About the cultural element, I can't agree with that. In some countries, like Italy, football culture has deteriorated. In others, like Germany, it has improved. But overall, club football still has a huge place in Europe and South America.

Anyway, things can change surprisingly quickly, and not only due to the potential of rich owners buying clubs and pumping money into them. Atletico Madrid is a very good example of that. It's not that long ago that they had no prospect to fight for any titles. Hell, they played in the Segunda to start this century. Successful recruiting and coaching allowed them to get some financial assets and now with the new stadium they can be counted as an elite club in Europe. There are many clubs in the major leagues of Europe with large fan bases that could achieve the same thing. And you never know what will happen to current elite clubs with ownership changes etc. Chelsea, Man City, PSG...all of these teams could easily fall down the rank once the money runs out.

Irriducibili? No thanks, I'm a fan of Lazio.
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post #84 of 93 (permalink) Old January 17th, 2019, 14:28
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Anyway, things can change surprisingly quickly, and not only due to the potential of rich owners buying clubs and pumping money into them. Atletico Madrid is a very good example of that. It's not that long ago that they had no prospect to fight for any titles. Hell, they played in the Segunda to start this century. Successful recruiting and coaching allowed them to get some financial assets and now with the new stadium they can be counted as an elite club in Europe. There are many clubs in the major leagues of Europe with large fan bases that could achieve the same thing. And you never know what will happen to current elite clubs with ownership changes etc. Chelsea, Man City, PSG...all of these teams could easily fall down the rank once the money runs out.
The only way forward for clubs who don't have unlimited resources is sporting success, especially as TV-money and money from the continental tournaments (Champions League primarily) continue to increase. Atlético have sanitized a debt of €210 million to Hacienda (Spanish tax authorities) during the same time they have won 7 titles and built a brand new stadium. The tax debt was generated primarily during the two years in Segunda and has been a major problem for almost two decades. Doing all of this is a major committment which isn't for everyone and it's certainly not the norm. Player recruitment was good until maybe 2014 or 2015 but everything goes hand in hand with a theoretical a foundation which is open for flexibility. It helps everyone involved to work with clear references and this is something that not only requires past experience (to avoid the same mistakes as previously) but also humility and ability from the people who work in the sporting department - everything from scouts to coaching staff to players. This never would've been possible without Simeone and his coaching staff though. Otherwise it's impossible to achieve the different grades of stability on the top level.

I wouldn't go as far as "established elite club in Europe" because Atlético aren't at that level financially. The financial growth (from a budget of €120 million in 2011 to €403 million in 2018) is strongly impacted by primarily three things: 1) Years of direct qualification for the Champions League 2) Sporting success in the Champions League (+ market pool shares) and 3) LaLiga's new TV-deals. The only certainity is the clubs TV-deal in LaLiga, the rest has to be earned on a yearly basis and there'll be seasons or periods when Atlético won't be as good as they've been since Simeone took over. Relaxation will only make the club go backwards.

That's why the daily work is so important because good routines create good habits.

There's also lots of financial engineering with Atlético. The CEO is constantly borrowing money to keep the club afloat from a daily perspective because there's a lack of liquidity. The money come from dodgy places such as different tax heavens and even pension funds with high interest rates (up to 9% in some cases) because money is needed constantly while the big payments such as TV-contracts are scheduled to certain periods on the year. The rise also wouldn't have been possible without different TPO-deals (Third Party Ownership) but the club has seen many of them as temporary loans (like Falcao for an example).

Modern football is a jungle.

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zoric man, do you have like 5 screens in your room streaming 7 channels while simultaneously following 10 livescore websites?

p
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ZORIC!!!


Feeling depressed about Kosovo? We still have ZORIC!!!

When someone asks for the most famous Serbian exports, you answer "Slivovica, Tesla i ZORIC!!!"
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post #85 of 93 (permalink) Old January 17th, 2019, 15:00
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People need to remember that football is escapism for a large number of the World's population. Therefore it's strongly connected to emotions and the outcome (results). People who work inside these clubs (with a influence) don't think like fans in most cases. Modern football is completely reliant upon either generating money or having lots of funds available and it creates an important imbalance between the stabilized clubs (who qualify for big tournaments but don't dispute them) or established elite (Madrid, FCB, Bayern, rich English clubs) and everyone below these groups (a Red Star of today for an example). Where there's money, there's dodgy people. This means you'll need important connections nationally and furthermore internationally to be successful domestically and/or the continental tournaments. Politicians or politics, to use other words. Emotions or emotional outbursts (which fans are very prone to) can't play an important part in the planning of the foundation which is the sporting project. People support clubs because of their emotional attachment to them after all.

There's a reason why a Red Star, Steaua Bucharest or Dynamo Kiev could do well in Europe but that doesn't work in a globalized World where everyone's strongly affected by the capitalism and where most kids dream about making lots of money rather than doing something for their paternal clubs. Making club football between the West and East (+ the smaller countries) more "fair" is impossible in the current climate because the best players will always be pushed towards the money and the gaps have grown too big over the past 25-30 years.

We'll see the casual newcomer/surprise but they'll be picked apart very soon.

Quote:
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zoric man, do you have like 5 screens in your room streaming 7 channels while simultaneously following 10 livescore websites?

p
Quote:
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ZORIC!!!


Feeling depressed about Kosovo? We still have ZORIC!!!

When someone asks for the most famous Serbian exports, you answer "Slivovica, Tesla i ZORIC!!!"
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post #86 of 93 (permalink) Old January 17th, 2019, 16:18
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hey Zoric, just curious what your thoughts are right now for the mess RM is in? Apparently only Perez could not forsee selling Ronaldo and not replacing him with a goal scorer would lead to the chaos we are in right now...ffs.

I expect massive signings and a new coach in the offseason but it will take a few years to rebuild back to a powerhouse...in the same time frame Messi will be another 2 years older and further on the decline so Farca will get worse...I just pray they don't win the CL.

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post #87 of 93 (permalink) Old January 24th, 2019, 09:03
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The only way forward for clubs who don't have unlimited resources is sporting success, especially as TV-money and money from the continental tournaments (Champions League primarily) continue to increase. Atlético have sanitized a debt of €210 million to Hacienda (Spanish tax authorities) during the same time they have won 7 titles and built a brand new stadium. The tax debt was generated primarily during the two years in Segunda and has been a major problem for almost two decades. Doing all of this is a major committment which isn't for everyone and it's certainly not the norm. Player recruitment was good until maybe 2014 or 2015 but everything goes hand in hand with a theoretical a foundation which is open for flexibility. It helps everyone involved to work with clear references and this is something that not only requires past experience (to avoid the same mistakes as previously) but also humility and ability from the people who work in the sporting department - everything from scouts to coaching staff to players. This never would've been possible without Simeone and his coaching staff though. Otherwise it's impossible to achieve the different grades of stability on the top level.

I wouldn't go as far as "established elite club in Europe" because Atlético aren't at that level financially. The financial growth (from a budget of €120 million in 2011 to €403 million in 2018) is strongly impacted by primarily three things: 1) Years of direct qualification for the Champions League 2) Sporting success in the Champions League (+ market pool shares) and 3) LaLiga's new TV-deals. The only certainity is the clubs TV-deal in LaLiga, the rest has to be earned on a yearly basis and there'll be seasons or periods when Atlético won't be as good as they've been since Simeone took over. Relaxation will only make the club go backwards.

That's why the daily work is so important because good routines create good habits.

There's also lots of financial engineering with Atlético. The CEO is constantly borrowing money to keep the club afloat from a daily perspective because there's a lack of liquidity. The money come from dodgy places such as different tax heavens and even pension funds with high interest rates (up to 9% in some cases) because money is needed constantly while the big payments such as TV-contracts are scheduled to certain periods on the year. The rise also wouldn't have been possible without different TPO-deals (Third Party Ownership) but the club has seen many of them as temporary loans (like Falcao for an example).

Modern football is a jungle.
With the current crazy prices of players, many teams could use their incoming transfer money to develop the organization long term. That's definitely one way in which clubs could become more competitive. It used to be that a new stadium was in a totally different scale money-wise than player sales. But now you could finance 50% of a 300m stadium by selling two, perhaps just one player. Take Roma and Lazio, for example. Both teams suffer financially from playing at a rented stadium unsuitable for football and having very few revenue channels. Thus the matchday income is a negligible part of the total income. But both clubs have huge assets in their squad and could probably raise 150m easily from player sales without making the team uncompetitive. Of course in Rome it's incredibly hard to get through all the red tape, so there are always more factors than simply money to consider. But generally, now would be a great time to invest in such long-term projects. In Italy, Napoli, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio and Fiorentina all suffer a great deal from their stadium circumstances. To get ahead in that fight, it would be crucial to act quickly.

Irriducibili? No thanks, I'm a fan of Lazio.
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post #88 of 93 (permalink) Old January 25th, 2019, 05:46
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In Italy, Napoli, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio and Fiorentina all suffer a great deal from their stadium circumstances. To get ahead in that fight, it would be crucial to act quickly.
Unlike say teams in Portugal and Netherlands, Italian teams doesn't seem to have the culture, system, or strategy to develop and export players for high fees.
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post #89 of 93 (permalink) Old January 31st, 2019, 01:04
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Unlike say teams in Portugal and Netherlands, Italian teams doesn't seem to have the culture, system, or strategy to develop and export players for high fees.
Except Moneyball Monchi!

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post #90 of 93 (permalink) Old January 31st, 2019, 16:18
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Except Moneyball Monchi!
He's only just moved to Roma, no? I think we have to wait and see what he can do outside of Sevilla.
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post #91 of 93 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2019, 15:23
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3 teams still competing for the most desired prize in club football. Ajax, Tottenham and Liverpool! Club football making a strong comeback!

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Athletic ability to spare, genius level mathematicians, invented the internet, invented russian language, incredibly attractive people, master carpenters, cultural richness to rival any country, musical artistry unsurpassed in Europe....

I'm not kidding here, and I've said it before, if you look deep down in your soul you'll realize that Romanians are master race.
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post #92 of 93 (permalink) Old May 9th, 2019, 22:02
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There might not have been a repeat winner in the UCL before Real, but every season, we pretty much know who will win the UCL and that is the sad part in all this. There are 10 clubs that will win the UCL the next 100 years - Real, Barcelona, Atletico, Manchester City, Manchester United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Juventus, Paris Saint Germain, Bayern. That's why for me football has run its course. That 'competition' is pretty much down to a relative few which are owned by the relative few, most of which comes from oil money, gas money, Chinese investment and FIAT.

Even teams with rich European history such as Inter, Milan, Porto, PSV, Ajax, etc struggle to find some ground each season... some of which have their own foreign owners... and that's not even mentioning champions from the true small countries who also have a rich tradition such as Anderlecht, Dynamo Kyiv and Red Star Belgrade. You're pretty much relying on an oligarch to come to your country to have any shot at competing in the UCL, and that is the depression affecting modern football.
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I am willing to bet any sum you want, no matter how high, that in the next 100 years there will be a different UCL winner than Real, Barca, Atletico, ManCity, ManU, Liverpool, Chelsea, Juve, PSG and Bayern.
*cough*

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post #93 of 93 (permalink) Old May 9th, 2019, 22:55
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Can still be Pool, Jeff.

But of course 100 years is long, so I am not worrying.

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