So Umberto Eco died - Xtratime Community
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 54 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2016, 15:22 Thread Starter
Xtratime Legend
 
Morierinho's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05 2006
Teams: Inter; Stoke
Posts: 28,749
So Umberto Eco died

What do you think?

Sad imo, as he's sort of always been around, as this sometimes-rambling uncle of yours.

Not bigotting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze da Fiel View Post
Ive probably been the poster with most number of heated discussions in this board over the years.... and I can assure you I won at least 90% of them.
dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghat ka
Morierinho is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 54 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2016, 15:36
Administrators
Xtratime Legend
 
JCamilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2002
Location: Brasil
Teams: Atletico-MG
Posts: 29,017
I think the reports of his death are not exagerated...

Kind liked his books about semiotics, medieval aesthetics and such. The fiction was just ok, a Italo Calvino in a very bad day.

Kat: "JCam, you may quote me now, but you are quite wise".

Kat: "JCam knows, we do not doubt in him".
JCamilo is offline  
post #3 of 54 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2016, 17:17 Thread Starter
Xtratime Legend
 
Morierinho's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05 2006
Teams: Inter; Stoke
Posts: 28,749
Yeah, the novels were a mess.

Not bigotting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze da Fiel View Post
Ive probably been the poster with most number of heated discussions in this board over the years.... and I can assure you I won at least 90% of them.
dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghat ka
Morierinho is offline  
 
post #4 of 54 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2016, 17:32
Forum Manager
Legend
 
RahzeL's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2006
Posts: 12,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morierinho View Post
Yeah, the novels were a mess.
I only read The Name of The Rose by him and I'm trying to understand how exactly it was a mess. Care to explain?

Ma question préférée: qu'est-ce j'vais faire de tout cet oseille?
RahzeL is offline  
post #5 of 54 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2016, 17:56 Thread Starter
Xtratime Legend
 
Morierinho's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05 2006
Teams: Inter; Stoke
Posts: 28,749
That one was the least messy, since it has the crime story and the watson/sherlock buddies.

Island of yesterday and Foucaults Pendulum have more of these digressions and encyclopedic knowledge dropped.

Not bigotting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze da Fiel View Post
Ive probably been the poster with most number of heated discussions in this board over the years.... and I can assure you I won at least 90% of them.
dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghat ka
Morierinho is offline  
post #6 of 54 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2016, 18:05
Administrators
Xtratime Legend
 
JCamilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2002
Location: Brasil
Teams: Atletico-MG
Posts: 29,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by RahzeL View Post
I only read The Name of The Rose by him and I'm trying to understand how exactly it was a mess. Care to explain?
it was so messy that Eco himself re-edited the book removing large parts of the original to make it somehow less messy.

It is Sherlock holmes story. detective tales are about plot and mistery, not about pseudo-joycean word play. He made the amazing mistake, murky language to hide the mistery. You hide in the plain sight. If wasnt the movie to simplify that absurdity attempts to be borges, it would have faded to the universe of "books people buy to pretend to be high brow".

Kat: "JCam, you may quote me now, but you are quite wise".

Kat: "JCam knows, we do not doubt in him".
JCamilo is offline  
post #7 of 54 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2016, 23:16
Forum Manager
Legend
 
RahzeL's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2006
Posts: 12,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo View Post
it was so messy that Eco himself re-edited the book removing large parts of the original to make it somehow less messy.

It is Sherlock holmes story. detective tales are about plot and mistery, not about pseudo-joycean word play. He made the amazing mistake, murky language to hide the mistery. You hide in the plain sight. If wasnt the movie to simplify that absurdity attempts to be borges, it would have faded to the universe of "books people buy to pretend to be high brow".
It is not a simple Sherlock Holmes story. At its core it is but it was never meant to be just that. It is filled with layers and layers and layers of meaning, intertextuality, historical references, genre meaning discussions and allusions. You may not enjoy it and that's fine but it was not a mistake. It was an intention.

Ma question préférée: qu'est-ce j'vais faire de tout cet oseille?
RahzeL is offline  
post #8 of 54 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2016, 23:18
1st Tier Poster
Xtratime Legend
 
Andy Christ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10 2003
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Teams: Estonia
Posts: 47,299
I once started to read it but didn't get very far...

Big games are easy than the other games, unfortunately. Every times we have the control the games, under the control the games, during the games we had the some possibilities, some big chances, some big okazyons, something like that but what can I do, sometimes? And….it’s the football, that’s the football, something happened. Everything is something happened. - Fatih Terim
Andy Christ is offline  
post #9 of 54 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2016, 23:27
Administrators
Xtratime Legend
 
JCamilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2002
Location: Brasil
Teams: Atletico-MG
Posts: 29,017
it is not about being simple or complex, it is what this kind of text is able to do. The detective story is a locked box where the complexity of the text keeps the reader from entering in the story. You bring him (the reader) to the text and once he is here, you start to place all the allusions (the dective story is often a literary game, a text about the ideal interpretation) you need. Eco did fail because he tried to mix borges with joyce and the essential about them is that they do not mix up.

You can find many detectve stories playing the high intelectual game, Borges The Death and the Compass is a prime example and Borges never did the mistake to fill the text with the literary allusions he could as he did for example in Tlon or Library of Babel.

And Yes, it was his intention, but this only means he tried something and failed and was something Eco acknowledge.

Kat: "JCam, you may quote me now, but you are quite wise".

Kat: "JCam knows, we do not doubt in him".
JCamilo is offline  
post #10 of 54 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2016, 23:34
Premier Player
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09 2012
Location: Balkan
Teams: MUFC
Posts: 1,850
I have read couple of his books, he was really good historian and writer. It is not easy to read his books because they contain a lot of historical facts and it's not easy to catch things in the book.
The Joker is offline  
post #11 of 54 (permalink) Old February 21st, 2016, 23:47
Forum Manager
Legend
 
RahzeL's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2006
Posts: 12,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo View Post
it is not about being simple or complex, it is what this kind of text is able to do. The detective story is a locked box where the complexity of the text keeps the reader from entering in the story. You bring him (the reader) to the text and once he is here, you start to place all the allusions (the dective story is often a literary game, a text about the ideal interpretation) you need. Eco did fail because he tried to mix borges with joyce and the essential about them is that they do not mix up.

You can find many detectve stories playing the high intelectual game, Borges The Death and the Compass is a prime example and Borges never did the mistake to fill the text with the literary allusions he could as he did for example in Tlon or Library of Babel.

And Yes, it was his intention, but this only means he tried something and failed and was something Eco acknowledge.
It is not only about Borges and Joyce, the whole book is a journey through the history of literature. It is a play with styles, allusions and direct references. And again, even that is only one of so many layers of it.

How exactly did he fail? The book has done well both in regards to masses and literary critics. It sold millions and millions and at the same time it is still being discussed in universities all over the world. In fact, it is quite often being used in introductory university classes of literature.

Ma question préférée: qu'est-ce j'vais faire de tout cet oseille?
RahzeL is offline  
post #12 of 54 (permalink) Old February 22nd, 2016, 00:20
Administrators
Xtratime Legend
 
JCamilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2002
Location: Brasil
Teams: Atletico-MG
Posts: 29,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by RahzeL View Post
It is not only about Borges and Joyce, the whole book is a journey through the history of literature. It is a play with styles, allusions and direct references. And again, even that is only one of so many layers of it.
Nobody suggests it was only Borges and Joyce (Albeit, all Joyce and Borges literature is about a journey through the history of literature), but that is the essence of his failure. You cannot have a detective novel mixed with a lingustic experiement and have a successful text. It is flawed.

Also, having layers. Sure, Dan Brown has layers. Some very similar to Eco (not exactly the name of the rose),but it is how those layers interect, are build that matter. Eco's layers are in conflict, two intelectual games that do not blend so well. Plus, how thin are those layers...

Quote:
How exactly did he fail? The book has done well both in regards to masses and literary critics. It sold millions and millions and at the same time it is still being discussed in universities all over the world. In fact, it is quite often being used in introductory university classes of literature.
Obviously, I am not talking as comercial success. And Eco criticism is hardly unanimous, very mixed and The name of the Rose have been sold a lot in abrideged versions (some that Eco himself oversaw because he reckons the problems of the novel). Eco is hardly a househood name that is why he was hardly a real contender for the Nobel. His academic status (not the fictional) is something else, way bigger and it splashes on his work fame.

And he fails because of that, as i exaplained:

it is not about being simple or complex, it is what this kind of text is able to do. The detective story is a locked box where the complexity of the text keeps the reader from entering in the story. You bring him (the reader) to the text and once he is here, you start to place all the allusions (the dective story is often a literary game, a text about the ideal interpretation) you need. Eco did fail because he tried to mix borges with joyce and the essential about them is that they do not mix up.

The name of the rose is as literary text inferior to the best Borges, to Chesterton, Wilkie Collins, Poe, Dickens, Chandler, Doyle. William of Barskeville is frozen as one of the copies of Sherlock, it has no life on himself and all knowleadge that Eco placed in the book couldnt change it.

Kat: "JCam, you may quote me now, but you are quite wise".

Kat: "JCam knows, we do not doubt in him".
JCamilo is offline  
post #13 of 54 (permalink) Old February 22nd, 2016, 08:39
Forum Manager
Legend
 
RahzeL's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2006
Posts: 12,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo View Post
Nobody suggests it was only Borges and Joyce (Albeit, all Joyce and Borges literature is about a journey through the history of literature), but that is the essence of his failure. You cannot have a detective novel mixed with a lingustic experiement and have a successful text. It is flawed.
The detective plotline is simply the engine that drives the story. It only does not work if you expect a tight and fast detective novel. So it's simply about the expectation you have. It doesn't work for you and you didn't like it? That's fine but it does not mean that he failed and that it didn't work.

On a side note, all Joyce is a journey through the history of literature? Take his work Dubliners, all these short stories work on their own with no references, allusions and intertextuality with the history of literature.

Quote:
Also, having layers. Sure, Dan Brown has layers. Some very similar to Eco (not exactly the name of the rose),but it is how those layers interect, are build that matter. Eco's layers are in conflict, two intelectual games that do not blend so well. Plus, how thin are those layers...
The differences are huge. Dan Brown wrote his books in a very simple and accessible way. They were written for the masses and the paperback market. They are not literary experiments in any way. The Name of the Rose is the exact opposite of that.

So how thin are Eco's layers? They are the exact opposite of thin. They are not only anything but thin but appear in overwhelming numbers concerning antiquity, medieval times, history of art, intertextuality (to texts like the Bible or Bocaccio's Il Decamerone) , allusions to even the likes of Angelus Silesus or Meister Eckhart amongst many many others, to the history of literature, linguistic experiments leaning towards Genette, postmodernism and paratextual experiments. The list could go on and on. It was Eco's intention that the complexity of all those layers would overwhelm the reader but that the force that would keep the people reading would be the rhetorical proslepsis and paralipsis which means that the narrator would slowly give the reader the necessary information at the right times that would help him find his way through this "mess" of layers as you guys like to call it. If you are interested in it, you can read Eco's postscript of the work.

http://www.amazon.com/Postscript-Nam.../dp/015173156X

Quote:
Obviously, I am not talking as comercial success. And Eco criticism is hardly unanimous, very mixed and The name of the Rose have been sold a lot in abrideged versions (some that Eco himself oversaw because he reckons the problems of the novel). Eco is hardly a househood name that is why he was hardly a real contender for the Nobel. His academic status (not the fictional) is something else, way bigger and it splashes on his work fame.
The fact that the criticism was not unanimous is actually a good thing imho.

Quote:
The name of the rose is as literary text inferior to the best Borges, to Chesterton, Wilkie Collins, Poe, Dickens, Chandler, Doyle. William of Barskeville is frozen as one of the copies of Sherlock, it has no life on himself and all knowleadge that Eco placed in the book couldnt change it.
I don't see a necessity to compare these works at all. And the part about William of Baskerville... he is not a copy of Sherlock but an obvious allusion to him. He may not work as a character as well for you if you insist on reading the book as a detective novel but as I said, that is not what this book is about.

Ma question préférée: qu'est-ce j'vais faire de tout cet oseille?
RahzeL is offline  
post #14 of 54 (permalink) Old February 22nd, 2016, 09:17
Forum Manager
Legend
 
Kafka's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02 2000
Location: Amsterdam
Teams: HJK, Lazio
Posts: 14,067
The Name of the Rose is a wonderful book...if Eco himself was critical of it, it just shows how high standards he had. Of course it's not a great work of fiction as such, but it was written well enough to introduce millions of people to scholarly topics they originally knew nothing about nor had any interest in. Proper topics, not some Dan Brown shit.

That's an achievement.

Irriducibili? No thanks, I'm a fan of Lazio.
Kafka is offline  
post #15 of 54 (permalink) Old February 22nd, 2016, 11:33
Administrators
Xtratime Legend
 
JCamilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2002
Location: Brasil
Teams: Atletico-MG
Posts: 29,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by RahzeL View Post
The detective plotline is simply the engine that drives the story.
You are making a mistake. The Detective story is a genre, which has a set conventions. You can certaintly have a murder story without having a detective story (like Crime and Punishment) but that is not what Eco tried to do.

Quote:
It only does not work if you expect a tight and fast detective novel.
No, Bleak House works too. But it will work on Father Brown stories. There is a structure, fast paced, slow paced, shortl , long, I didnt mention any of those because they are not a problem.

Quote:
So it's simply about the expectation you have. It doesn't work for you and you didn't like it? That's fine but it does not mean that he failed and that it didn't work.
For me? I gave you the reason why it does not work, I didnt said a word about liking or not. You cannot make a critical analyse of any book resuming to "I like" or "i dislike". There is sort of a critical concensus that the book has those problems, that the structure was broken by the excessive display of knowledge Eco used. In this very thread Mo just complained about it. It is not "me".

Quote:
On a side note, all Joyce is a journey through the history of literature? Take his work Dubliners, all these short stories work on their own with no references, allusions and intertextuality with the history of literature.
It would suffice to say that Joyce major works, those who better describe him, are filled with allusions and intertextuality and that you decided to use the exception as a rule, but Dubliners does not have them?

Heck, the work is filled with Freud, there is mentions to euclids, a character which motivation comes from a quote to Robert Browning, proverbs everywhere, the whole building a city from the portrait of the citzens is Dickensian strategy, popular irish literature and to not say it is me, let me quote a passage from a thesis from Nebraska University named "Allusive Mechanics in Modern and Postmodern Fiction As Suggested by James Joyce in His Novel Dubliners" :

"The allusions to Shakespeare occur throughout “The Dead,” from direct reference to echo to subtext. Taken individually, each potential intertexual experience may or may not be effective, but taken en masse they create a referential environment that would be hard to miss. And Gabriel Conroy is a well-read figure. He likes to read, as evidenced by the report that “The books he received for review were almost more welcome than the paltry cheque” (188); by the report of his familiarity with Homer, Browning, and Shakespeare (192); and by the fact that he is a professor at the University (188). The most obvious place to begin when highlighting a Shakespearean idiom is with clearly stated references. Shakespeare is quoted by name early on:"

Sorry, but overall, Joyce entire aesthetics is born from his desire to re-organize the past literature, you will not find a work where he is breaking the past and using in his own work as a form to reorganize and fullfil history. Dubliners may be far from the radical experiments of Ulysses or Finnegans Wake, but he is "testing" his hand already there.

Quote:
The differences are huge. Dan Brown wrote his books in a very simple and accessible way. They were written for the masses and the paperback market. They are not literary experiments in any way. The Name of the Rose is the exact opposite of that.
That is extremelly superficial and Eco came to the point he said he invented Dan Brown, so big the similarities are. And there will be many that will say "Eco" experiments are not so radical and he is a comemrcial writer that was taking guys like Borges, Joyce, Mallarme to the masses. Of course, this is something sensible as he never did something as hermetic as The Name of the Rose afterwards, the allusions and references are easier just enough to make people feel they are sailing into the realm of "High Brow" culture, something that Eco super status as academic generated. But he is a pop author, not the other way around.

Of course, he writes better than Dan Brown, but this does not make any similarity disapear.

Quote:
So how thin are Eco's layers? They are the exact opposite of thin. They are not only anything but thin but appear in overwhelming numbers concerning antiquity, medieval times, history of art, intertextuality (to texts like the Bible or Bocaccio's Il Decamerone) , allusions to even the likes of Angelus Silesus or Meister Eckhart amongst many many others, to the history of literature, linguistic experiments leaning towards Genette, postmodernism and paratextual experiments. The list could go on and on.
Sorry, both those are not "Layers", those are just information that we know Umbero Eco have (nobody is denying this. The guy was one of the greatest intellectuals of the last half of century). Layers are how all this combines in the text to create interpretations possibilities. For example, the idea in The Name of the Rose is how the missing work of Aristotle shapped the medieval philosophy, because they couldnt make references to this work. The idea that a book can have an impact even if not read. Or that the concensus about a work belongs to a few intellectuals.

Nice, but Medieval aesthetics is highly visual. It is funny how the defender of medieval aesthetics is blind, so he does not represent this age at all (we all know it is a homage to borges and truly, Burgos concerns are modern and that is when the Detective Novel enters in conflict with the rest of the name of the rose and how this takes this "Layer" to a thin end).


Quote:
It was Eco's intention that the complexity of all those layers would overwhelm the reader but that the force that would keep the people reading would be the rhetorical proslepsis and paralipsis which means that the narrator would slowly give the reader the necessary information at the right times that would help him find his way through this "mess" of layers as you guys like to call it. If you are interested in it, you can read Eco's postscript of the work.
I am not going to buy a postscritp. I would just point to you how this helps my argument. Eco needed a post script to guide the writer for a detective story. It is not a 2,3 pages line that explain the mistery it is more "here, i will give a class about the topics i use so you guys can have a reference because apparently this was so excessive that kept the reader away from the story". Eco is cleaning his mess.

Now, you can write a text where you make references to dante, shakespeare, crowley, vigo, swendeborg, malba tahan, egyptian book of dead and bollywood. You may add more topics. You are adding complexity and this may overwhelm the writer, just like reading several topics at once will do. Information causes it. But this imply the novel had "deep" layers? Dan Brown fills his novels with references to several topics, does it make his layers deep? No, in either case. There is a mess of information in the Name of the Rose, not so much of layers, mostly because all this information is in conflict with the genre of the novel which damage the capacity of the novel to provoke the reader's interation (which implies his interpretation). That is why the novel is a "failure", it is about the work as a whole, not about me.

Anyone who reads Eco works on aesthetics and semiotics knows how far from showing his deep knowledge The Name of the Rose is.

Quote:
I don't see a necessity to compare these works at all. And the part about William of Baskerville... he is not a copy of Sherlock but an obvious allusion to him. He may not work as a character as well for you if you insist on reading the book as a detective novel but as I said, that is not what this book is about.
That is the problem, he is a sherlock and that is all he managed to be. There is no difference between him and and Sherlock (the tv series). They basically remove the character from Victorian England and place him in another age.

Kat: "JCam, you may quote me now, but you are quite wise".

Kat: "JCam knows, we do not doubt in him".
JCamilo is offline  
post #16 of 54 (permalink) Old February 22nd, 2016, 17:13 Thread Starter
Xtratime Legend
 
Morierinho's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05 2006
Teams: Inter; Stoke
Posts: 28,749
Eco might have liked the reference to a dissertation from University of Nebraska.

Didn't realise Dubliners was considered a novel rather than a collection of short stories.

I think actually Eco put me off serious literature for a while in high school, since reading The Island of the Day Before turned sour and it strengthened the idea that I was too stupid for great literature, as opposed to being too stupid or inexperienced to call Eco out on his 'piling on' method. It wasnt assigned reading, and I can see why teachers do not use it to persuade boys into reading (of course the main challenge for teachers in these ADHD times). Even though the themes and Eco's smart-ass style would at first seem to appeal to a certain group of young men. That said, in combo with the movie and his other writings, the books will have helped win new fans for Borges, if not for Thomas aquinas.
Morierinho is offline  
post #17 of 54 (permalink) Old February 22nd, 2016, 18:47
Forum Manager
Legend
 
RahzeL's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2006
Posts: 12,134
@JCamilo

I think you are missing the point. It's true that information and intertextuality itself do not necessarily create layers but in this case they definitely do and that is the intention of the whole book. This is agreed upon by readers, critics and the author himself. It is also a play with genre conventions so it is not a surprise that he did not stick to them.

And then you used the postscript in favor of your point although you did not read it. It's mit a guide on how to read it. It actually strengthens my argument because the paragraph I was referring to elaborates how Eco succeeded in keeping the reader interested in the story despite the overwhelming amount of knowledge required to follow the narration. I understand that you think it is a mess but I do not understand how one could argue that Eco factually failed when all the overwhelming evidence speaks against it.

Ma question préférée: qu'est-ce j'vais faire de tout cet oseille?
RahzeL is offline  
post #18 of 54 (permalink) Old February 22nd, 2016, 19:09
Administrators
Xtratime Legend
 
JCamilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2002
Location: Brasil
Teams: Atletico-MG
Posts: 29,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morierinho View Post
Eco might have liked the reference to a dissertation from University of Nebraska.

Didn't realise Dubliners was considered a novel rather than a collection of short stories.
That was a random because it was quite easy to find someone talking about allusions on Joyce. Anyways, it is not a novel, albeit the stories are considered somehow a part of a unity.

Quote:
I think actually Eco put me off serious literature for a while in high school, since reading The Island of the Day Before turned sour and it strengthened the idea that I was too stupid for great literature, as opposed to being too stupid or inexperienced to call Eco out on his 'piling on' method. It wasnt assigned reading, and I can see why teachers do not use it to persuade boys into reading (of course the main challenge for teachers in these ADHD times). Even though the themes and Eco's smart-ass style would at first seem to appeal to a certain group of young men. That said, in combo with the movie and his other writings, the books will have helped win new fans for Borges, if not for Thomas aquinas.
Ah, there should be no doubt, it is better a world with Umberto Eco than one without it.

Kat: "JCam, you may quote me now, but you are quite wise".

Kat: "JCam knows, we do not doubt in him".
JCamilo is offline  
post #19 of 54 (permalink) Old February 22nd, 2016, 19:21
Administrators
Xtratime Legend
 
JCamilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2002
Location: Brasil
Teams: Atletico-MG
Posts: 29,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by RahzeL View Post
@JCamilo

I think you are missing the point. It's true that information and intertextuality itself do not necessarily create layers but in this case they definitely do and that is the intention of the whole book. This is agreed upon by readers, critics and the author himself. It is also a play with genre conventions so it is not a surprise that he did not stick to them.
I am not missing the point. I am saying that the "Layers" of The Name of the Rose weren't created and the combination of medieval information create a nose that never matched well the narrative. Does not matter his intention (which is not to show off knowledge of medieval culture, but tell a detective novel with the medieval culture as background), having an intention is not the same as having success.

And what are those layers? When I asked, you replied giving me information, data, but nothing about those layers of interpretation you are talking about. Let's face it, The Name of the Rose is not that complex work. We are not talking about Dante here. We are talking about a popular detective novel and you are mistaking the complexity of information with the complexity of interpretation.

Plus, I have no idea who are those readers, critics, who agree about something. The simple disagreement in this thread is enough to show there is no such unity of appraisal of the book.

Quote:
And then you used the postscript in favor of your point although you did not read it. It's mit a guide on how to read it. It actually strengthens my argument because the paragraph I was referring to elaborates how Eco succeeded in keeping the reader interested in the story despite the overwhelming amount of knowledge required to follow the narration. I understand that you think it is a mess but I do not understand how one could argue that Eco factually failed when all the overwhelming evidence speaks against it.
Eco writes a book to explain the elements that people could not understand because 1% of world population study or has any knowledge of medieval philosophy and aesthetics proves how well writen is a book? Do you see how the elements of The Name of the Rose do not combine well, to the point he could and needed an explanation to this whole part, the whole part that is often removed form the abrideged editions, from the movie, you know, because it is something that creates a difficult for the reader without ever being balanced with the narrative...

And overwhelming evidence? The popularity of the book? Beware, this evidence approaches Eco to Brown a little too much.

Kat: "JCam, you may quote me now, but you are quite wise".

Kat: "JCam knows, we do not doubt in him".
JCamilo is offline  
post #20 of 54 (permalink) Old February 22nd, 2016, 22:10
Forum Manager
Legend
 
RahzeL's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2006
Posts: 12,134
I didn't give you simply information and data, I mentioned examples of what constitutes the layers of this book. There's tons and tons of approaches of interpretation. A very widespread one is very simple, it focuses on the parallels between William's attempt at solving a murder and the reader trying to bring order into "mess" (the complexity I already mentioned) and both looking for truth. He tries to decode the signs which is obviously a wink to semiotics. And what happens in the end? William fails. This is a big difference to the detective novels he parodied in this work. Repeatedly he draws parallels between himself and the reader and their similar tasks. The most obvious one at the end of the story.

I think the biggest difference between us is that you keep insisting that it is primarily a crime novel. I'm sorry but that is proven wrong. In the postscript Eco himself wrote that the novel starts like a detective story and fools the naive reader into not realizing that this is a crime novel in which hardly anything gets solved at all. His words not mine! (Free translation)

Intention does not equal success. But when I declare that somebody failed I take his intention into consideration.

Ma question préférée: qu'est-ce j'vais faire de tout cet oseille?

Last edited by RahzeL; February 22nd, 2016 at 22:17.
RahzeL is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Xtratime Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive. Try to avoid choosing short (like '1'), simple (like 'abcd') and easy to guess passwords (like a name of your favorite team, player, etc)! Complex and long enough passwords, that consists of random string of alphabet and numerical characters, are almost impossible to be stolen and misused.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome