Borges or Bioys : The Great Debate - Xtratime Community
 
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old January 27th, 2008, 18:41 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fangio
I'm just generous
Another way to be atleticano, be generous, specially with things you do not have.

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People get married, Bioy got married "a la Bioy"...a more elastic situation...
that only means he was civilian aristocratic and Borges a militar aristocratic... there is of course another reason why Bioy was a bit less aristocratic than Borges, which is the fact Borges was so close, his friend and partner. There is no much space for two suns, Bioy probally knew it, probally a less blind person than Borges was, that is why he was more able to portrait characters in his books than Borges, who was only able to use ideas as characters (or himself of course, but then Borges is an idea to himself), but of course it is not saying he was not aristrocratic (Cortazar was very ariostocratic also, but in a different way).

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What you are saying is partly correct (even more than partly at some extent), more than anything you are telling the Europe and many argie intelligentzia self congratulate witty conception and very own auto projection form both writers, but at some point is closer to the Di Stefano is spanniard, Sivori italian and Messi is Catalan, notion..
Yes, but then, it make sense 100, 200 (or more sense if no sense at all) to not be anything from Latin America and be French, English, maybe italian and spanish, or german.

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Is more like both were thinking "I'm an argie wanting to be recognize by the metropoli to show how much argie I am anyway, even if I know there is no such thing as being argie and if exists it doesn't matter that much at all, even when matters to me"...
Could be, altough in Borges case he was after all educated in europe, and have those roots and the strong prejudice against anything not european, save for the few exceptions. He would make Bastin proud, with all the misconceptions of the great Empire and that was probally the greatest joke of all, when the century turned, the most knowledable english writer was not english at all.
As Cortazar, everyone goes to Paris, who can blame him? But how much of his options I wonder are a way to not walk the path Borges walked, it suits him so well, almost as If both of them combined "Lets mock the europeans and their petty rivalirities. I will pretend to be English and you will pretend to be french and we are both going to deal with the same universe but lets pretend you do not like me and I will still like you just like the british empire liked every people they conquered?"

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Also never forget that Borges and Cortazar are perhaps monsters of marketing, they knew what was need to slowly and in a solid way consolidate an image, an stereotype of the "non-stereotype" and weird, mysterious fella, wht the world might need of them...mainly in such battles, the field was a literature one...
Trully, Borges only became good with his marketing late in his life, when he was too blind and too tired. Then all he did was to polish the same texts that would increase the image of literary icon he had and his inclination for the pathetic intelectual prisioner of his own wit.

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Bioy fought in other field, life...
Life allways imposed to Bioy, even with him being radically a vouyear, a literature personna, even being lost in his nationality identity like any argie.
As Bioy, I said, I did not read much of him as I read about Borges. For once I think he enjoyed a gamble as much as Borges, allowing him to be Borges's Watson and wating for a quite generous crumb left by his "master", just like Borges claiming Bioy teached him to be a classical writer. Watever Borges is claiming about the meaning of classic, nothing of that made any sense, if Borges had really learnt anything from Bioy he would have find ways to write more long texts because since day one Borges was a classical writer. Perhaps was deluded to think he was not, but certainly this shows a bit like how their relation should be. And I think it would not be an easy think to be a friend of Borges because all the humbleness and modesty of Borges seems something he crafted for the public.
That is why I would like to see the non-fictional texts of Bioy, he seems to me to enjoy the position of distance, the observer, as you said, a vouyer, even in those literary matters. This kind of mind may not bring up revolutions but usually discovers one or another great truth.

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Is his life, and how life exudes from him in a classic literature stylish writing, what makes him appealing...Borges knew it, Cortazar knew it, almost every writer after him knows it...once the pretentions of nationalities are blown, the desires of fame, metropoli and homeland recognition too...who doesn't want to be Bioy conquering with ease the only land that is worth conquering...the female skin and their moody mind...

His life under the shadow of other writers, his admiration for other writers and desire of being a great writer himself, are only things that allows us (the rest of humanity) to sleep in peace.
You know, that could be the description of Borges or Cortazar as well p

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After all Bioy had his demons too, he wasn't all that "perfect", full and so IN life like we thougth, but damn he was closer than us...pretentious bastard...

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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old January 27th, 2008, 18:46 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fangio
I didn't know this charrua...
So, for you to not say all my indications can be reduced to Borges, this one I caught up while reading about Cortazar.


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Powys...sounds like some witty aristhocratic zurdito like you
This one seems inexistent in the library and by what I looked. I think it will be a considerable luck to find a book that he wrote to be read here...


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Because that is the main thing of a great writer, creating the illsuion that we could say, thought about that and worse, write like that...
Yes, I tricked all of them.

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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old January 27th, 2008, 20:20
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You know, that could be the description of Borges or Cortazar as well

Borges conquering (at least for those short moments that are worthy a 100 years life) the ladies skin and moody mind?...not even near...

Cortazar a bit when he understood the "rebel" personna pay such dividends (his literature was dammaged in the process, I don't think he even care)..the rest of course can be a description of the three...

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This kind of mind may not bring up revolutions but usually discovers one or another great truth.
his battlefield was life...not books...even when he might love to be entirely in the books field

you made me think with this line about the aristocrat in Bioy and the one in Borges...is not that one is above the other, apart from a social point of view, where a Military one is "useful" and the brand of Bioy isn't...

Borges indeed is a military one, from the candid and naif specie, the incapable of being one...he loves revolutions, even if he only loves them to despise them...

Bioy? doesn't care about them, only to laugh at them (not that Borges didn't anyway too)...he is from another specie, the dandy one, that it happens to be in his case, also an aristocrat...

Cortazar is just a giant, a desperate shy, calm...a vacuum seeking knowledge of giant witty proportions and noble caring for everything...is a big nice fella, too much bright for his own good...

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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old January 28th, 2008, 14:53 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fangio
Borges conquering (at least for those short moments that are worthy a 100 years life) the ladies skin and moody mind?...not even near...
Nope, just the last part that I quoted, nothing about woman, here in brazil there is a expression for Borges "Menino criado pela avó". That is it.

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Cortazar a bit when he understood the "rebel" personna pay such dividends (his literature was dammaged in the process, I don't think he even care)..the rest of course can be a description of the three...
See, you are spending too much time in the Love and Dating Forum p


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his battlefield was life...not books...even when he might love to be entirely in the books field
There is no such thing man, unless you are buying Borges propaganda that they are apart and it is possible to have them apart. Book is the style, life always the process.


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you made me think with this line about the aristocrat in Bioy and the one in Borges...is not that one is above the other, apart from a social point of view, where a Military one is "useful" and the brand of Bioy isn't...
Dunno, I do not see much use for armies also but before Tim shoot us (as Bonita is about to do p ) I think it was the generation that each belonged, even if close, Borges was really a man of XIX century. His army passion didn't saw the great wars, that kind of romantic soldier - He was more like a Victor Hugo kind of soldier. That is what he wanted... Bioy is a XX century elite, the kind of Aldous Huxley, the Frankfurt bunch, Virginia Woolf's group, etc. Almost like a burgoise moderm elite, but one quite tired of modernity.

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Borges indeed is a military one, from the candid and naif specie, the incapable of being one...he loves revolutions, even if he only loves them to despise them...

Bioy? doesn't care about them, only to laugh at them (not that Borges didn't anyway too)...he is from another specie, the dandy one, that it happens to be in his case, also an aristocrat...

Cortazar is just a giant, a desperate shy, calm...a vacuum seeking knowledge of giant witty proportions and noble caring for everything...is a big nice fella, too much bright for his own good...
In other words, almost the same. In a sense, Borges belongs to another elite also (one that have no effect in real life), as a writer he is in a place where Cortazar and Bioy are not, they had to deal with him and the changes he caused (even as you said, he was not trying to change anything. By the way, the perfect model of Intelectual Aristocratic stills Voltaire, and in many ways Borges is near the volterian archetype) while Borges was free of future. In many ways, that essay about Kafka where Borges says that famous "We create our own precussors" works so well for him and Bioy. I bet it was a joke they told a hundred times before Borges noticing it had such potential...
Anyways, Borges is, in many aspects naive and even lacked some inteligence. When the field was philosophy, literature he was too cleaver but the same cleaverness that made him able to find reading keys where few would was absent in many other aspects. Bioy seems more centered to me, the little I know about him makes me think that while the distance of Borges was a matter of incapacity of interpretation and relation, Bioy just opted for that. Maybe that was what you meant as more aristocratic in the end...

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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old January 28th, 2008, 15:05
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There is no such thing man, unless you are buying Borges propaganda that they are apart and it is possible to have them apart. Book is the style, life always the process.
Of course, what you got what I meant, he chose (or couldn't do anything else too) not to fight that battle and hide in books...and when I mean life, is by trying to grab it as much as you can...I can have a life in prision, as long as I breathe, but in Borges case, he chose his own prision and even his bilndness serve his purpose...when you think of Lovercraft, Borges, these are people with clear issues regarding the challenge every day life represents.

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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old January 28th, 2008, 15:16
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Bioy seems more centered to me, the little I know about him makes me think that while the distance of Borges was a matter of incapacity of interpretation and relation, Bioy just opted for that. Maybe that was what you meant as more aristocratic in the end...
Borges try to force things, theories, everything (of course " a la Borges" in a "humble way and with casual interest " hehe) using his intelligence and witt; the bastard succeeded more than failing, due to those two talents...he wanted to provoque, with real basis or without them.

Bioy just used his intelligence and witt to observe and in the meantime the only thing he changes and cares to change and fail time and again...is himself, he operates in life under the guidness of his intelligence, and why not, some cold, distante character for moments...is his ironic view about himself observing us/him, what is left in his books...

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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old January 28th, 2008, 15:28 Thread Starter
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just to say that ther is a story, a critic (because it is hard to find english versions of bioy casares to place here) of Bioy Casares diary about Borges. The Snobish Arisotocratic club (That was the book I wanted to buy, after all, I am sure that the reading pleasure is despite the faults we see, so even when they are being nasty about T.S.Eliot, Flaubert, etc... I am sure they are also saying "Oh, I like to read him" beneath the words (That makes me remember Borges being apoletic for Nabokov, who desliked Dostoievisky so much that claimed that he (Vlad) did not placed a single work of Dostoievisky because didn't found any worth and Borges said that what Nabokov meant is that Dostoievisky merit is all his work, so he could not put apart any specific work.)

Borges goes to dinner at Bioy’s flat in Buenos Aires several times a week. The diaries laboriously record these events, and their lively post-prandial conversations held late into the night. Sometimes for days on end they will write a Bustos Domecq short story or satire, with Bioy trying to restrain his friend’s tendency to cram the narrative with abstruse jokes and baroque embellishments. At other times – more and more, as Borges grows blinder over the years – Bioy will read to Borges, and they will comment on the text. Their comments are usually scathing. These two passionate lovers of literature find very little to like in what they read. Flaubert has an awkward, “bureaucratic” style which stifles the reader’s interest. Shelley has a “disagreeable facility for complicated verse”, Rabelais is “abominable”, T. S. Eliot is “beneath contempt”, which is strange considering the similarity between Eliot’s and Borges’s conceptions of writing as a form of creative reading that modifies the texts that precede it.


Given Borges’s aversion to long novels, which he rarely read in full, it is not surprising that he should think Tolstoy tedious. “I think it is best to read only the war sections”, he says of War and Peace. And then he adds, sarcastically: “only then you miss out on the romance”. Borges, unlike Bioy, tends in general to believe love not to be a suitable subject for literature. On Baudelaire, Borges complains that it is “ridiculous to fill literature with cushions and furniture and show evil in a positive light. Baudelaire helps one gauge whether a person understands anything at all about poetry, whether he is an imbecile or not: anyone who admires Baudelaire is an imbecile”.


“Maybe every writer, read with care, reveals his imbecility. We ourselves do”, concedes Borges at another dinner. But Silvina Ocampo, Bioy’s wife, also a fine poet and writer of short stories, whom Borges tends to ignore despite being her almost daily guest, offers another explanation for his tendency to find everything awful. “With every day that passes he is less and less inclined to like work that is not his own”, she says. To be fair, Borges does like some writers (Bioy likes many more, but in the face of Borges’s overbearing personality, he keeps many of his opinions to himself). Borges almost unreservedly admires Kipling, Stevenson and Chesterton. He also likes Kafka, Rubén Darío, Antonio Machado, St John of the Cross and Verlaine. On Cervantes, Lope de Vega, Gracián, Calderón, Góngora and Quevedo, he is changeable, but always interesting – he is deeply immersed in the Spanish classics.

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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old January 28th, 2008, 15:35 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fangio
Borges try to force things, theories, everything (of course " a la Borges" in a "humble way and with casual interest " hehe) using his intelligence and witt; the bastard succeeded more than failing, due to those two talents...he wanted to provoque, with real basis or without them.

Bioy just used his intelligence and witt to observe and in the meantime the only thing he changes and cares to change and fail time and again...is himself, he operates in life under the guidness of his intelligence, and why not, some cold, distante character for moments...is his ironic view about himself observing us/him, what is left in his books...
That is the problem when we have two guys that enjoy farse and are good creating it... anything they do may be just a game, a way to put them safe, so they can keep with their confortable position. Being far away from Europe seems to be very helpful too. We never know for sure when they are building their own set of references or what was published was just for the myth's sake. (I found, while interesting, Isidro Paradi to be a failure as detective stories go, everything right, but all else wrong because both of them are too elaborate to appeal the commun reader. Busto Domeq Chronicles in other hand, more perfecft, the sense of irony combine well with intelectual snobery).
By the way, I was curious abous Silvina Ocampo writing, didn't found any to read, but I heard some good stuff. Anyways, poor woman, she is the wife of borges's friend

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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old January 28th, 2008, 15:56
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Anyways, poor woman, she is the wife of borges's friend
worse, she was the wife of the lover of almost every other writer`s wife from that era...

She is weird, that's for sure, I read very little, with too much high expectations, I might have to give her another chance.

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Borges or Bioys : The Great Debate

It should be Bioy or Biorges, me bad

For me, football is irrationality, tribal, passionate... - Almogŕver

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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old January 28th, 2008, 16:30 Thread Starter
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We got told

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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old February 25th, 2008, 13:58
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Where did this start... in some Oriundi thread?

Not bigotting

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Ive probably been the poster with most number of heated discussions in this board over the years.... and I can assure you I won at least 90% of them.
dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghat ka
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old February 25th, 2008, 16:39 Thread Starter
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The Story of ILA thread. We trolled it, Bonita smashed us.

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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old February 25th, 2008, 17:29
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..and with a gentle smile...

"De cada 10 personas que ven televisión...5 son la mitad"
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old February 25th, 2008, 18:03
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I see. Asterión's House.

I was learning the spanish subjuntivo and came across this line:

Ojalá me lleve a un lugar con menos galerías y menos puertas.

Not bigotting

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Ive probably been the poster with most number of heated discussions in this board over the years.... and I can assure you I won at least 90% of them.
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post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old February 25th, 2008, 18:37
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Ojalá me lleve a un lugar con menos galerías y menos puertas.
That sounds a lot like Xtratime, there every gallery and door takes you to the same place: Overrated or Underrated land, like some of their people call it. These clans like to think they belong to different breeds, but they belong to the same place and ideology.

I guess Borges tried to transmit the overwhelming feeling of those galleries and doors infinite possibilities; in Xtratime, you will face a worse scenario of an infinite time with no Xtra possibilities apart from the mentioned above...I guess Dante forgot to mention UbberratedLand among his hell circles...

"De cada 10 personas que ven televisión...5 son la mitad"
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post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old February 25th, 2008, 18:52 Thread Starter
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Underated and Overated seems like the limbo, Hell is for people who actually do something (except the Minotaur, he is there), after all you must be notable to bring God's anger...

I bet Borges would tell us that in some ancient language, a Monk that wanted to destroy football discovered that the worlds Under and Over, when writen in a white circle spinning would reveal to be the same word... something like this...

Anyways, are you up to build up a "real" XT top 100 players when Mutu and Rob finish with those ? We can pick the votes of the voices inside your head plus my voice and then make the texts and then post it...

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post #18 of 18 (permalink) Old February 25th, 2008, 19:10
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Anyways, are you up to build up a "real" XT top 100 players when Mutu and Rob finish with those ? We can pick the votes of the voices inside your head plus my voice and then make the texts and then post it...
yes do that please

Big games are easy than the other games, unfortunately. Every times we have the control the games, under the control the games, during the games we had the some possibilities, some big chances, some big okazyons, something like that but what can I do, sometimes? And….it’s the football, that’s the football, something happened. Everything is something happened. - Fatih Terim
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