Professional football: Haram or not? - Xtratime Community
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post #1 of 51 (permalink) Old December 18th, 2005, 06:24 Thread Starter
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Professional football: Haram or not?

Read this:
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ln...QR=75644&dgn=4

The reason why I posted it here is obvious. This is the Arabian Football forum and I expect most of us here to be Muslims. I know that football is extremely popular throughout the Muslim World and even stating that professional football as exists today is haram would provoke quite a response. So I wanted to see how you people react.

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post #2 of 51 (permalink) Old December 18th, 2005, 08:37
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do you really search from this site????
alot of emams/shiekhs/saieds said its not haram
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post #3 of 51 (permalink) Old December 18th, 2005, 19:25
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No, Football is halal 100%
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post #4 of 51 (permalink) Old December 20th, 2005, 21:22
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Some say football is haram, while others say it is halal. Of course it depends a bit on how you play it, I never play it with the intention to harm anyone. So therefore I think it is halal.
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post #5 of 51 (permalink) Old December 20th, 2005, 23:07
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The basic rule is everything is halal unless it is clearly shown that it isn't, in the Qur'an.
If you take any of these fatwa quacks seriously, you need help. God asks YOU about your actions on judgement day, not the sheikh you follow. Don't rent your brain to these people.

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post #6 of 51 (permalink) Old December 20th, 2005, 23:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiJazzey
The basic rule is everything is halal unless it is clearly shown that it isn't, in the Qur'an.
If you take any of these fatwa quacks seriously, you need help. God asks YOU about your actions on judgement day, not the sheikh you follow. Don't rent your brain to these people.
I guess the decandece of western societies makes it easier for muslims to accept what some of the sheiks and mullahs tell them to do. I agree, people should not rent their brain to these peoples and if there is something about the society that you do not appreciate or dont like, you do not have to do it (unless of course it is written in the law, but that is something else).
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post #7 of 51 (permalink) Old December 21st, 2005, 01:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiJazzey
The basic rule is everything is halal unless it is clearly shown that it isn't, in the Qur'an.
If you take any of these fatwa quacks seriously, you need help. God asks YOU about your actions on judgement day, not the sheikh you follow. Don't rent your brain to these people.
I agree with you.
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post #8 of 51 (permalink) Old December 21st, 2005, 23:42
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HiJazzey.. totally agree..

Sadly.. I think one of the main problems with a big chunk of Muslims is we read a certain fatwah and brainlessy go with it.. I'm not saying u did Mishal.. But I believe God differed humans from animals by granting us the gift of being able to use our brains..

There are many things that require some individual decision making to decide whether u believe it's haram or not.. but I think football is one that can be more general.. the way I look at it is simple.. and it's pretty much the opposite of what the link was saying.. I don't see anything in football that would make it haram.. and if it is for those reasons.. than ANY competitive game is too.. even a game of cards.. or chess..

Best Regards,

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post #9 of 51 (permalink) Old December 23rd, 2005, 23:14
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Haram according to who? And how so?

All these Sheikhs and such make up their own rules it's disgusting

Follow the Qu'ran, if anyone else tells you otherwise they are idiots (sorry).

Well said Jaz

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post #10 of 51 (permalink) Old December 24th, 2005, 00:20
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Not.

Next question.

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post #11 of 51 (permalink) Old December 24th, 2005, 16:44 Thread Starter
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Much as I would love to agree with you people (the thought of not watching Liverpool every Saturday evening is very sad indeed), I would like to clarify two things here:
1) I do not follow fatwas blindly. Only if I see that a fatwa is using verses of the Qur'an and authentic hatith to back up its claims do I take it seriously. Even then, if I have doubt, I ask people for opinions and more sound judgement. That is precisely why I have posted the link here.

2) Please do not think I am saying football is haram. It is not haram and only a fool will claim it to be haram. What I am saying is that professional football may be haram. Do notice the title of the thread. What I mean by professional football is the existing system of clubs, leagues, national teams and competitions and players getting paid for their 'job'.

Islam is a way of life which requires us to maintain a balance between 'deen' (religion, afterlife etc) and 'duniya' (worldly life, material life, physical needs etc). Football is a healthy means of entertainment and keeps us fit too.

However,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasir
I don't see anything in football that would make it haram..
I see a lot of things that CAN make professional football (or for that matter any other professional sport) haram:
1) It results in extreme violence at times, if not always. Crowd trouble, objects thrown at players and refs, players getting into brawls, lifelong injuries caused by tackles).

2) It results in tragedies which could have been avoided had they not been played professionally in stadiums (Heysel, Hillsborough etc). If football were to be played at the local field, such events would never take place. I may sound outrageous, but please take the time to think over this point.

3) It breeds intolerance, hatred and bad behaviour...all of which are the very antithesis of what Islam intends to inculcate in a good Muslim.

4) It breeds arrogance and discourages humility...again going dead against the philosophy of Islam. A true Muslim can never have an ounce of respect for a person like Mourinho, let alone be a fan of him.

5) It severly distracts from religious obligations. I have personally missed my prayers or at least delayed them on several occassions when I was watching football matches. And I know many people who do the same. Also, I have declined doing jobs given to me by my mother or someone or skipped them because of football. The examples are far from exhaustive.

6) Only applicable to the professional football players - it forces them to skip religious obligations at times, if not always. How many professional footballers fast during the month of Ramadan? Even if they want to, can they possibly fast given the extreme physical pressure they go through? And football matches often go on during prayer times and do not finish until the prayer time has ended. Doesn't that mean that the Muslim footballers are missing their prayers too? Or do they actually get themselves substituted to pray? (Gimme a break!)

Before someone starts whining that if professional football is indeed haram, then Islam is too strict a religion and forbids too many of our worldy pleasures, I want to quote HiJazzey,
Quote:
The basic rule is everything is halal unless it is clearly shown that it isn't, in the Qur'an.
As a result, most things in this world are halal and only a few are actually haram. And I always believe that if a thing is haram, there is a DAMN GOOD reason(s) for it to be haram.

Having listed the reasons for professional football to be haram above, I now seek your response.

P.S. Nero, how about being a little less dismissive? Maybe there's some merit in the argument?
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post #12 of 51 (permalink) Old December 25th, 2005, 04:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utopia
I see a lot of things that CAN make professional football (or for that matter any other professional sport) haram:
1) It results in extreme violence at times, if not always. Crowd trouble, objects thrown at players and refs, players getting into brawls, lifelong injuries caused by tackles).

2) It results in tragedies which could have been avoided had they not been played professionally in stadiums (Heysel, Hillsborough etc). If football were to be played at the local field, such events would never take place. I may sound outrageous, but please take the time to think over this point.

3) It breeds intolerance, hatred and bad behaviour...all of which are the very antithesis of what Islam intends to inculcate in a good Muslim.

4) It breeds arrogance and discourages humility...again going dead against the philosophy of Islam. A true Muslim can never have an ounce of respect for a person like Mourinho, let alone be a fan of him.

5) It severly distracts from religious obligations. I have personally missed my prayers or at least delayed them on several occassions when I was watching football matches. And I know many people who do the same. Also, I have declined doing jobs given to me by my mother or someone or skipped them because of football. The examples are far from exhaustive.

6) Only applicable to the professional football players - it forces them to skip religious obligations at times, if not always. How many professional footballers fast during the month of Ramadan? Even if they want to, can they possibly fast given the extreme physical pressure they go through? And football matches often go on during prayer times and do not finish until the prayer time has ended. Doesn't that mean that the Muslim footballers are missing their prayers too? Or do they actually get themselves substituted to pray? (Gimme a break!)
All these things happen anywhere in the World. Not just football. A job is a job, time consuming. When the crowd gets violent it is usually not he players fault. Football is not different from any other job.

In regard to getting distracted from religious obligations and responsibilites this is up the the individual, not the proffesion. If the player balances his life with detachement from materialism and prays there should be no problem.

As far as I know players can also pray around the two hour match time. For Ramadan i'm not sure all the muslim rules as I myself am not Muslim. But what are the exceptions for not fasting?

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post #13 of 51 (permalink) Old December 25th, 2005, 04:22
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I think you can postpone Ramadan if necessary. Al Nassr or Raja Casablanca did this when they came to Brazil for the 2000 World Club Championship.
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post #14 of 51 (permalink) Old December 25th, 2005, 09:06 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiyan
All these things happen anywhere in the World. Not just football.
Hmmm...now, let's see....
The profession of doctors results in violence.
The profession of engineering results in tragedies like stampedes
The profession of accountancy breeds intolerance, hatred and bad behaviour
The profession of an aeroplane pilot breeds arrogance and discourages humility.
The profession of a banker severly distracts from religious obligations.
The profession of gym trainer forces him to not fast or miss prayers.

Surely I am missing something? I must be naive to not notice all this so many years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiyan
A job is a job, time consuming. When the crowd gets violent it is usually not he players fault.
Did I say it's the players' fault? The point is that professional football incites crowd trouble which is not desirable in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiyan
Football is not different from any other job.
Except that professional football does not serve any purpose for an Islamic society. Doctors heal people. Engineers make roads and bridges. Scientists do research. And footballers? They provide entertainment I hear you say?

You want entertainment? Go play football yourself in the field. As for the professional footballers...how will they feed their stomachs you ask me? Well, they should become economists, scientists and policemen all of whom have a social function to fulfill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiyan
In regard to getting distracted from religious obligations and responsibilites this is up the the individual, not the proffesion. If the player balances his life with detachement from materialism and prays there should be no problem.
Only problem is, few or none actually manages to maintain that balance. It's like saying "it's okay to drink and drive as long as he can think properly". For crying out loud, it's obvious that he won't be thinking clearly after going through half a bottle of vodka.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiyan
As far as I know players can also pray around the two hour match time. For Ramadan i'm not sure all the muslim rules as I myself am not Muslim.
Well, let's take an example. Maghrib prayers are just after sunset. And, correct me if I am wrong, sunset in England is around 8pm. It's Saturday evening and Liverpool is playing Bolton. Mr Sissoko has just been told by Rafa Benitez that he is in the first 11. Match begins at 8 and half-time is 45 minutes later. By that time, Maghrim time is over. What excuse is Sissoko thinking of coming up with?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiyan
But what are the exceptions for not fasting?
Menstruation, tremendous illness, fatal injury due to accident...football not being even close to the seriousness of the exceptions that I have mentioned.
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post #15 of 51 (permalink) Old December 25th, 2005, 10:20
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Utopia, it seems to me that you don't fully appreciate the weight of the term haram and what it really signifies. For something to be established as haram, you need to provide a body of evidence against it, including the Islamic principles it contravenes, something you haven't done.

None of the reasons you elicited hold anywhere near enough credence to declare something haram. If we used your logic, then nearly anything could be deemed haram because it may lead to negative behaviour or distract a person from their religious obligations. You are placing too much emphasis on the possible side-effects of an activity, instead of what the real focus should be in this matter, and that is the responsibility of the individual for his actions and his conduct.

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post #16 of 51 (permalink) Old December 25th, 2005, 11:25 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero
None of the reasons you elicited hold anywhere near enough credence to declare something haram.
Could you kindly tell me how the reasons are not credible enough? Missing prayers, fasting and breeding intolerance and arrogance are not serious enough? Please elaborate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero
If we used your logic, then nearly anything could be deemed haram because it may lead to negative behaviour or distract a person from their religious obligations.
Nearly anything? Why don't you give me some examples?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero
You are placing too much emphasis on the possible side-effects of an activity, instead of what the real focus should be in this matter, and that is the responsibility of the individual for his actions and his conduct.
Please refer to the drinking/driving example I gave earlier. If your argument is to hold true, drinking and driving should not be banned. After all, it's 'the individual's responsibility for his actions and his conduct'.

If the side-effects are serious enough, there is no such thing as 'too much' emphasis on them.

Last edited by utopia; December 25th, 2005 at 11:30.
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post #17 of 51 (permalink) Old December 25th, 2005, 12:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utopia
Could you kindly tell me how the reasons are not credible enough? Missing prayers, fasting and breeding intolerance and arrogance are not serious enough? Please elaborate...
If you can't see how football in itself is not responsible for the above-mentioned things, but rather the direct actions and decisions of individuals, it's rather pointless for me to debate with you on this subject, as we are simply poles apart in our respective views of the world.

Football does not make you intolerant or arrogant, nor does it cause you to miss prayers. It is your choice whether you become or indulge in any of those things. How a football game influences you, whether it be positively or negatively, is your prerogative not that of the sport. You seem to totally rule out the central role of a person's discretion in all your arguments.

Quote:
Nearly anything? Why don't you give me some examples?
An episode of Seinfeld could cause you to be become increasingly shallow and devolve meaning in your life by your logic, if we (people) are as mentally weak and impressionable as you seem to suggest, by inferring a game of football can have such profound consequences on one's psyche.

Quote:
Please refer to the drinking/driving example I gave earlier. If your argument is to hold true, drinking and driving should not be banned. After all, it's 'the individual's responsibility for his actions and his conduct'.
It has been proved scientifically that alcohol impairs a person's judgment, lowers a person's inhibitions and alters a person's innate discretion. It's consumption is also directly harmful to one's health. How you link that to a professional sport, i have no idea...

Quote:
If the side-effects are serious enough, there is no such thing as 'too much' emphasis on them.
The problem is you seem to be constructing those side-effects, to fit your argumentation. You're also exaggerating the effects a sport has on a person's ability to discriminate between good and bad, and his own conscience with regards to fulfilling his religious obligations.

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Last edited by Nero; December 25th, 2005 at 12:32.
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post #18 of 51 (permalink) Old December 25th, 2005, 14:23
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Nero

Nothing more to add

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post #19 of 51 (permalink) Old December 25th, 2005, 14:25
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Ok, let me tell you that

1st of all, we know that everything is Halal, except some little thing is Haram
like, Zina, Khamr, Riba, Kofr, Sihr… etc

I pray 5 times in a day, each pray take from me, 10 to 15 minutes
That’s means 75 minutes total

75 minutes from 24 hour? and 75 minutes its maximum
The point is we gave our Deen "Religion" time, we must give to our Donia "normal life" time

And because everything in life is Halal, except the thing we know
So its not harm at all "if its professional football or not"


-------------------------------
out of subject
Habib Kolo Toure, Arsenal professional Player, he pray before every match, and some times between the 2 halfs,

Last edited by Mussav; December 25th, 2005 at 14:33.
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post #20 of 51 (permalink) Old December 25th, 2005, 14:48 Thread Starter
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Okay, so let's drop the example of alcohol because it has been scientifically proved to be harmful. Let's touch on a more gray area, shall we?

Tell me, is it scientifically proved that watching porn movies is harmful for us? No it isn't. Does Islam allow watching it? No it doesn't.

Is it scientifically proved that gambling is harmful for us? No it isn't. Does Islam allow it? No it doesn't.

Is it scientifically proved that flirting with the opposite sex is harmful to us? No it isn't. Does Islam allow it. No it doesn't.

I could go on and on. You get my point. There are hundreds of activities that are spiritually harmful to us and hence cannot be scientifically proved to be harmful or harmless. Such activities take us away from Allah and into the path of the Devil without us ever realizing there is anything wrong with them.

Watching porn and flirting with the opposite sex can lead to adultery and ultimately broken marriages and even AIDS. Gambling can lead to financial bankruptcy, trauma etc. Allah knows it and hence banned the avenues to such disasters.

Professional football (and other professional sports) has the potential to cause similar spiritual damage without us realizing it. You can say it's upto our discretion. But if we could really depend on our own judgement so much, why was gambling banned for us? We would have been wise enough to understand its dangers and not engage in it anyway, isn't it? And even if we did engage in it, we would gamble in a controlled manner, wouldn't we? I don't think so....

Btw, I don't know about Seinfeld because I never watched it but I used to be a big fan of 'Friends' and I stopped watching it. Why? Because it eats away at my morality unconsciously. Three unmarried women and three unmarried men living together and having fun. Innocuous, huh? Not really. Watching it makes one feel that such 'living together' is acceptable.

Similarly there are many other practices that slowly become acceptable to us Muslims as we keep on watching these TV shows. All of a sudden, homosexuality is not a 'big deal' anymore among Muslims. They have watched it on TV too many times and it has become acceptable. Is there any scientific proof that watching 'Friends' make us more immoral? I am afraid not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mussav
1st of all, we know that everything is Halal, except some little thing is Haram like, Zina, Khamr, Riba, Kofr, Sihr… etc
You forgot the umbrella clause: anything that leads to such Haram acts are also Haram. Consequently, there are thousands of acts other than those you have mentioned which are Haram.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mussav
75 minutes from 24 hour? and 75 minutes its maximum
The point is we gave our Deen "Religion" time, we must give to our Donia "normal life" time
Unlike other 'religions', Islam is not exactly a religion but rather a way of life and unlike in other religions, no act of a good Muslim is outside his Ibadah. Hence, eating, sleeping, playing football in the field is also part of my Ibadah (as long as Allah accepts it of course). I do not see how my prayers is limited to 75 minutes. It goes round the clock....24/7.

Playing football keeps me fit and is ibadah for me. Even watching a decent cartoon entertains me and is ibadah for me. But bribing someone? Is that ibadah? Engaging in professional sports? I am starting to think this can't be ibadah either.
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