New Manager 2019: Marco Giampaolo - Page 5 - Xtratime Community
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post #81 of 203 (permalink) Old June 1st, 2019, 22:51
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Or we could have ďplayed betterĒ and obtained the same or less number of points.



68 points is more or less the best anybody could have done with this average squad imo.
I can't agree. He barely got a few points more than the terrible season before, with a better squad and an arguably weaker Serie A.

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post #82 of 203 (permalink) Old June 1st, 2019, 23:21
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I have heard that now too many times: that 5 points are nothing. Thatís BS. With 5 more points we would have qualified comfortably for the UCL. Fact remains that itís the best result for 6-7 years and itís still a very weak squad, only marginally better than the other years. Also, Gattuso was in charge also half of last season so youíre partially comparing him to himself.
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post #83 of 203 (permalink) Old June 1st, 2019, 23:39
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I have heard that now too many times: that 5 points are nothing. Thatís BS. With 5 more points we would have qualified comfortably for the UCL. Fact remains that itís the best result for 6-7 years and itís still a very weak squad, only marginally better than the other years. Also, Gattuso was in charge also half of last season so youíre partially comparing him to himself.
It's 4 points more, not 5. That's not what it takes from a bad season to a good one, with a better squad.

We dropped points against Cagliari, Empoli, Parma, Udinese, Bologna, lost to Fiorentina at home, ...
Our team isn't great but points dropped in half of our games is still not something I consider good enough.

And let's not forget the humiliation we endured in the EL.

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post #84 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 00:05
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Ok, 4 points. If we progress with 4 points per season with marginal reinforcements, I’ll be happy. That will mean we’re ready for UCL in one year. I could wish for quicker progress but it’s unrealistic without heavy investment.

Again, fact remains that we have performed better result wise those 18 months with Gattuso compared to everything since Allegri’s first two seasons.
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post #85 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 00:33 Thread Starter
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I am not buying that you actually believe that Gattuso pushed this squad as much as it could have been pushed, and got from it the best anyone could get, and that a truly quality manager in his prime could not have done quite a lot better, both in terms of results and of football.

And I don't think he's bad, for the record, as I've said plenty of times, and we do need to remember we had a period with truly horrendous luck with the injuries.

Just for precision, I don't think when several posters mean "terrible football" it is in terms of style. Not me at least. In many games we scratched wins out of the blue, creating less than the rivals. I actually seem to remember you being one of the few posters who agreed that the good run could not possibly last. That was not because we didn't play possession-based or "heavy metal football". It was because we sucked, conceded too many chances, barely created any, and were often saved by the keeper and by rivals missing clear chances and hitting the post in key moments, and by a new striker who was in outrageous form, winning several games that 8/10 times would have gone the other way.

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post #86 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 01:06
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Not sure what we are debating here but to me it is somewhat simpler...Gattuso is not unique among coaches, others do it too, but some of those other coaches have better squads and can overcome it.....but Gattuso came in intending to use 4-3-3, as if nothing else exists and even Paqueta early on was a nominal mid 3. This was handicapping Milan regardless all the other things mentioned in this thread. The stubbornness doesn't align with the circumstances of Milan. Quality of play suffered throughout his reign, not only last few weeks or whatever other period. I repeat I am not claiming Gattuso was being very different in this regard but a limited squad exposes this inflexibility more.
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post #87 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 01:27
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I am not buying that you actually believe that Gattuso pushed this squad as much as it could have been pushed, and got from it the best anyone could get, and that a truly quality manager in his prime could not have done quite a lot better, both in terms of results and of football.

And I don't think he's bad, for the record, as I've said plenty of times, and we do need to remember we had a period with truly horrendous luck with the injuries.

Just for precision, I don't think when several posters mean "terrible football" it is in terms of style. Not me at least. In many games we scratched wins out of the blue, creating less than the rivals. I actually seem to remember you being one of the few posters who agreed that the good run could not possibly last. That was not because we didn't play possession-based or "heavy metal football". It was because we sucked, conceded too many chances, barely created any, and were often saved by the keeper and by rivals missing clear chances and hitting the post in key moments, and by a new striker who was in outrageous form, winning several games that 8/10 times would have gone the other way.
van, my point is that this squad is not better than 68 points. That is the reason I didnít buy into the good run, not because of Gattuso. We have been losing important games consistently for half a decade, we overperformed during that period and I had a clear feeling it wouldnít last, and unfortunately was proven right. Ok, with Conte, Klopp or Guardiola I think we could have perhaps earned 75 points maximally, but letís not kid ourselves, weíre not getting a WC manager Iím afraid.

So letís accept our feeling that our good run was mainly due to luck. That means under normal circumstances we would have earned less than 68 points, so how isnít that number acceptable? Ultimately, I donít accept anything except facts, though. During an entire season, luck/bad luck will more or less offset each other. The result is what matters when we analyse a season. I donít pretend to know better than results, i donít trust myself to such an extent.

What Iím saying here is it makes little sense to keep replacing one average coach with another. I trust results enough to believe that Gattuso has been the best of half a dozen of average coaches and should not be sacked unless thereís a proven alternative. Therefore, I would puke if we hired another (probable) nobody like Simone Inzaghi who has proven nothing whatsoever at the level we want to be at.
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post #88 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 01:37 Thread Starter
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What Iím saying here is it makes little sense to keep replacing one average coach with another. I trust results enough to believe that Gattuso has been the best of half a dozen of average coaches and should not be sacked unless thereís a proven alternative. Therefore, I would puke if we hired another (probable) nobody like Simone Inzaghi who has proven nothing whatsoever at the level we want to be at.
We agree, then, except that I thought Gattuso's tenure was done, no matter what, and that S. Inzaghi is on paper better qualified and seems much more promising than everybody we've hired before Gattuso. Can't say the same about the others rumored though.

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post #89 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 07:30
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Since I'm lost as to what we are debating, let me recap. My thoughts on this in some few points -

1. Gattuso did the best he could but he's not good enough. He simply had to go. No question.

2. While this squad isn't spectacular, a very good coach can do better than what we saw both in the league and EL.

3. Ideally we should get a top coach in the mould of the Conte's if we are to escape this hole of mediocrity. Unfortunately we aren't in an ideal situation due to obvious reasons.

4. An Inzaghi or Giampaolo is okay by me. They are far better than hanging onto Rino. And who knows, we could be lucky to have our potential Conte or Sarri in them.

5. Only outside chance of a a big coach is if Allegri would accept to take a step back, lower his demands and come. Unlikely.

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post #90 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 08:38
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Yeah, and Leicester won the EPL. Letís be realistic for a second. Atalanta overperformed.
Gasperini done similary before. Simply said a good/great manager improve his teams result and our squad is on the level that it is able to reach 2nd with a good/great manager.

Gattuso never managed to get our offense working and our defense only for a short period.
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post #91 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 08:43
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I think one main factor that Gattuso brought to the table as a coach for Milan, was he was able to show the young players what it means to wear the shirt and to fight nonstop with grit and determination. and in a way helping them grow into fighters on the pitch for Milan.

We saw this and the players showed that they wouldnt back down from a challenge, and it was somewhat of a downfall, as sometimes the players were a bit too aggressive and didnt have as much discipline as they should have (kind of like how Rino was as a player at times). Paqueta's sending off was a boiling point of this.

Rino was able to help the players grow up a bit, but just wasn't tactically enough to get us over the hump.

The next coach needs to be tough.... but also smart.
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post #92 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 11:58
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Gasperini done similary before. Simply said a good/great manager improve his teams result and our squad is on the level that it is able to reach 2nd with a good/great manager.

Gattuso never managed to get our offense working and our defense only for a short period.
Yes Gasperini is good at making small teams perform to the best of their ability.
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post #93 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 13:39
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We need a manager that can polish the shine off our gems... Just like what Jurgen Klopp had done for Liverpool. Most of Liverpool players were from the smaller clubs and were not consider world class yet but under the guidance of Klopp, they transformed into world beater players. That what we need from our new manager.

Look, when Salah joined Liverpool from Roma, he was not a prolific nor a Ballon'Dor kind of player. He scored 15 goals in 31 games in Roma. Piatek was scoring 13 goals in 19 games for Geona. Potentially we can groom Piatek to be the likes of Salah...

When Firmino joined Liverpool from 1899 Hoffenheim, he was relatively unknown but Klopp turned him into a much feared player. Lucas Paqueta was also unknown in Europe before arriving at Ac Milan. He definitely has the potential to be the next Firmino. Potentially, we can turned Paqueta into Firmino...

Sadio Mane joined Liverpool from Southampton. He wasn't very impressive at Southampton and Liverpool got him for a steal at $34m. Under the guidance of Klopp, he is now a world beater... we have Suso who IMO under achieve in Milan. He has great potentially but no good manager to transform him into another Mane.

Georginio Wijnaldum arrived Liverpool from Newcastle. He was just an average player at Newcastle but Klopp turned him into a Champion League winner. Frank Kessie definitely has the potential to be the next Wijnadlum...

Fabinho came to life after making the switch to Liverpool. Bakayoko (if he continued in Milan) can be as good as Fabinho but need a manager that can appreciate him. If utilised him properly, he can be as effective as Fabinho.

Jordan Henderson came from Sunderland without any accolades but is one of the important player for Liverpool. We have our own Hakan who I personally think has more potential than Henderson but just need to find his niche and play consistently. A manager with Klopp stature could nurture him into a much feared midfielder.

Virgil van Dijk came from with Southampton with huge reputation but transformed into the a world class player under Klopp. Romagnoli who came from Roma too came with high expectations but had not realised his full potential.

Matip was unheard of when he arrived in Liverpool but turned into a reliable defender under Klopp. We have Musacchio. How we hope that he can be as reliable as Matip...

Andrew Robertson was still playing in the Championship league when Liverpool signed him and boy did he transform to the world best left backs. We have RR in our wing. If only he can be more consistent like Andrew Robertson

Alexandre Arnold is the product of the Liverpool academy. We have our own Calabria....

Alisson Vs Donnaruma... No doubt Donnaruma is the better keeper to be honest...

I do admit that we are not at the same level as Liverpool right now maybe because the players that we have had not realised their full potential... We also need a few more reinforcements to back up the team. We also need a manager that can bring the best our of our players. There were many times when our team play with no motivation, no spirit and no cohesiveness. We need a manager that can inject some of these attributes into the team and make us great again.
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post #94 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 13:49
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Yeah, and Leicester won the EPL. Letís be realistic for a second. Atalanta overperformed.
They DEFENITELY did not overperform!!

Seriously, look at their squad. They got 2 highly capable goalkeepers that BOTH plays in the national team.

They've got a defense consisting of Palomino (agressive center back - doesnt back down) - Masiello (very capable center back, used to be a BEAST in Football Manager) - Rafael Toloi - Gianluca mancini (got a call up to the national team - highly talented)

They've got a midfield of Hateboer&Goosens - whom plays for the national team , whom both have been rumored to leave these last seasons, Freuler - extremly good, plays for the national team and De Roon - also plays for the national team.

And yes of course, Papu Gomez, Zapata and Ilicic.

Thats a coherent and good quality squad. I mean yes, they did a little better then expected and yes they have a good coach in Gasperini. But these players could easily fit in various top clubs. Its just that they came from under the radar and thanks to the quality of Atalanta scouting - and their youth academy - its starting to bare fruit.

I am more than confident that Atalanta will continue to be a top club - regardless of Gasperini being there or not. Because they have everything no one else except Napoli & Juventus doesnt have - they have a clear philioshpy and continuity. These players know eachother.
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post #95 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 15:49
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Papu, Zapata, Ilicic > Borini, Piatek, Suso.*

Atalanta has a great squad.


*99% because of Borini, but still 😂
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post #96 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 16:18 Thread Starter
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I’d say it’s mostly the coach/club setup though. I like all those guys, but put that attacking trio in Milan and under Gattuso and they would likely not be as effective.

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post #97 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 18:48
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They've got a defense consisting of Palomino (agressive center back - doesnt back down) - Masiello (very capable center back, used to be a BEAST in Football Manager) - Rafael Toloi - Gianluca mancini (got a call up to the national team - highly talented)

They've got a midfield of Hateboer&Goosens - whom plays for the national team , whom both have been rumored to leave these last seasons, Freuler - extremly good, plays for the national team and De Roon - also plays for the national team.

And yes of course, Papu Gomez, Zapata and Ilicic.

Thats a coherent and good quality squad. I mean yes, they did a little better then expected and yes they have a good coach in Gasperini. But these players could easily fit in various top clubs. Its just that they came from under the radar and thanks to the quality of Atalanta scouting - and their youth academy - its starting to bare fruit.

I am more than confident that Atalanta will continue to be a top club - regardless of Gasperini being there or not. Because they have everything no one else except Napoli & Juventus doesnt have - they have a clear philioshpy and continuity. These players know eachother.
I cant agree, which is one of the reasons I in the past talked with caution with buying players from them. Just like with buying attackers from a Zeman team. Gasperini have tactics that clearly makes some players shine and make his team push beyond the weight. (as @Laudrup pointed out thought he might not work out in a top club, even if this is still a great showing of what a manager can do to a team). Just you look at how well players that left their team is doing? I mean we are talking about Gagliardini, Kessie, Conti, Cristante, Spinazzola, Caldara, Kurtic (probably some I forgot) and they were all starters and succesful there, not so impressive now. For the same reason you now talk like they got world beaters.

Their defense is not that impressive, in fact all of them would been reserves with us. Just put Zapata with them and I am sure he would start. Masiello might have been big in FM, but IRL he is just a small club player that lives on being cynical, calm and concentrated. Palomino just broke through as he replaced Caldara, which I found more impressive in the same role. Toloi is good in his role, but there is a reason none are interested in buying him.

Their midfield are basically all replacements for players that impressed in the same way in the team and all also got callups for the national team while with Atalanta. (Kessie/Cristante still do)

Papu Gomez have indeed carried the team sometimes and might even be crucial for how well it works. Ilicic is a player that have failed more seasons than he has had success, now he is with a manager that makes him shine.
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post #98 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 19:37
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I cant agree, which is one of the reasons I in the past talked with caution with buying players from them. Just like with buying attackers from a Zeman team. Gasperini have tactics that clearly makes some players shine and make his team push beyond the weight. (as @Laudrup pointed out thought he might not work out in a top club, even if this is still a great showing of what a manager can do to a team). Just you look at how well players that left their team is doing? I mean we are talking about Gagliardini, Kessie, Conti, Cristante, Spinazzola, Caldara, Kurtic (probably some I forgot) and they were all starters and succesful there, not so impressive now. For the same reason you now talk like they got world beaters.



Their defense is not that impressive, in fact all of them would been reserves with us. Just put Zapata with them and I am sure he would start. Masiello might have been big in FM, but IRL he is just a small club player that lives on being cynical, calm and concentrated. Palomino just broke through as he replaced Caldara, which I found more impressive in the same role. Toloi is good in his role, but there is a reason none are interested in buying him.



Their midfield are basically all replacements for players that impressed in the same way in the team and all also got callups for the national team while with Atalanta. (Kessie/Cristante still do)



Papu Gomez have indeed carried the team sometimes and might even be crucial for how well it works. Ilicic is a player that have failed more seasons than he has had success, now he is with a manager that makes him shine.


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post #99 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 21:47
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Strong rumours pointing towards Giampaolo being the new coach.

Inas hit the nail on the head; ideally we would like a Sarri. But Giampaolo is a marked improvement over Rino. His Sampdoria evidence this as they have demonstrated sound tactical fundamentals in the way they approach the game. He understands football in a way Rino never will.

4-3-1-2 is his chosen formation. So we're going to need a forward in addition to Piatek and Cutrone, ideally a seconda punta. It'll be interesting to see if he sees Paqueta as a trequartista or mezz'ala.
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post #100 of 203 (permalink) Old June 2nd, 2019, 22:49 Thread Starter
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Strong rumours pointing towards Giampaolo being the new coach.

Inas hit the nail on the head; ideally we would like a Sarri. But Giampaolo is a marked improvement over Rino. His Sampdoria evidence this as they have demonstrated sound tactical fundamentals in the way they approach the game. He understands football in a way Rino never will.

4-3-1-2 is his chosen formation. So we're going to need a forward in addition to Piatek and Cutrone, ideally a seconda punta. It'll be interesting to see if he sees Paqueta as a trequartista or mezz'ala.
Let's hope for the best.

I have not seen enough of Sampdoria, but his results there certainly don't seem to justify Milan going after him. Midtable results with Sampdoria are no more no less than should be expected. Maybe the way they play and his tactical knowledge do stand out as particularly impressive -- but they haven't particularly stood out whenever I've watched them the last few seasons.

His Empoli campaign before joining Samp is probably his biggest achievement though, building from Sarri's work but in fact improving their results (unlike with Sampdoria, midtable with Empoli is a big achievement) while also keeping the identity.

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