Brazil's new generation

[HeitorTevez]

After this year's World Cup, players that were important in the last 3 cups are now leaving or being substituted by another players. Cafú and Roberto Carlos probably won't return to the NT and players like Émerson, Dida and even Ronaldo lost their space.

These old players are being substituted by players that weren't being called in Parreira times. Names like Marcelo, Dudu Cearense, Vágner Love, Fábio, Elano and Rafael Sóbis. And other names are waiting to wear the yellow shirt(examples are Daniel Alves, Nilmar and Anderson).

So, this new generation is ready to take the place of the "old" players? Is ready to win all the titles that they won in their times, or they need time to improve themselves?

[Grinch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeitorTevez

These old players are being substituted by players that weren't being called in Parreira times. Names like Marcelo, Dudu Cearense, Vágner Love, Fábio, Elano and Rafael Sóbis. And other names are waiting to wear the yellow shirt(examples are Daniel Alves, Nilmar and Anderson).

Look at how pitiful Brasilian Football currently is... the absolute majority of this "new generation" is already playing abroad, and the rare few who are still here (like Marcelo) are just waiting for their first halfway-decent offer to leave. Our once-proud clubs have been reduced to glorified talent factories, and the foreign clubs that sign our talents don't even have to be big clubs anymore. Today, any second-rate Euro team has more money than the richest Brasilian club.

Nowadays even the richest and healthiest Brasilian clubs fall down on their knees with gratitude if some "mighty" European club, like Betis, generously loans an injured player to recover their form here. And then there are the over-the-hill players: when once-great players don't get any more offers from better leagues, they're always welcome in our idol-starved clubs, where they'll be treated as superstars despite their declining form... unless some foreign club wants a veteran to complete their bench for one season (like Milan wanted Amoroso last year), in which case being a reserve in Europe or even Kuwait is clearly more attractive than being a star in Brasil.

Honestly - Brasilian football has never been in worse shape.

[Bordon is gone!]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrincha

Honestly - Brasilian football has never been in worse shape.

I disagree, Garrincha. You hold this view because that is what you can see from Rio de Janeiro and also as a supporter of Botafogo.

A Brazilian team is currently the world champion.
Another Brazilian team is the Libertadores champion.

This cannot be the worst of times.

[Grinch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bordon is gone!

I disagree, Garrincha. You hold this view because that is what you can see from Rio de Janeiro and also as a supporter of Botafogo.

A Brazilian team is currently the world champion.
Another Brazilian team is the Libertadores champion.

This cannot be the worst of times.

Sure it can, Bordon. Brasil is doing better on the Libertadores because the rest of the continent is also in bad shape. I agree that São Paulo (the club, not the state) is in a better situation - but even you guys, with all your organization, have to go around begging Betis to loan Ricardo Oliveira for a little while longer to improve your attack, because your previous star-forward left you as soon as an Euro team wanted an extra benchwarmer to complete their squad for a couple of months. Your star defender left you for a league that's not even among the top 5 in the world, because it was still better than SP and the crappy Brasilian league. SP is still the best-organized Brasilian club, but the fact that you only have shit up to your shoulders while the rest has shit up to their ears (and in Botafogo's case, we're scuba-diving in shit) doesn't mean that the league is doing well... it just means that you will probably be among the last to eat shit.

We're all gradually getting accustomed to the lower quality of football displayed in the Brasileiro, to almost all games being decided by refereeing errors, to players that treat our clubs as "temp jobs" while they wait for their turn to leave (even a well-paid pampered "superstar" like Robinho went on a strike and vanished from the oh-so-organized Santos when the club refused to sell him, because the club didn't really mean jack shit to him)... and as they get more and more accustomed to this widespread decadence, some fans are gradually losing sight of how great Brasilian football used to be.

The fact that the rest of South America is ALSO sucking donkey balls, and that teams from other states are doing even worse than your own, shouldn't blind you to the obvious decadence of domestic Brasilian football as a whole, Bordon. You're old enough to remember what great championships we used to have, when the Brasileiro was still a reference of quality in World Football... a quality that is almost entirely gone now. We used to have six or seven really great teams challenging for the national championship in any given year, now we have a couple and that's it - the rest is barely-watchable crap, including teams that challenge for the "top 5" like Santos.

Rio's football DOES stink worse than soiled underwear nowadays, I don't see how anyone can realistically dispute that. What I'm saying is Brasilian football as a whole is going down the same drain that claimed Rio football; Rio's clubs simply began their decadence earlier. But hey, as long as there are clubs in even worse shape than yours, you're free to embrace the illusion of a greatness that is undeniably slipping away with every passing year. You can rejoyce when a second-rate Euro team graciously loans your club one of their players, so that player's injury can be treated and he can regain his form, and as soon as he's in form the player will return to a better league, greatly relieved for not having to suffer through our crappy pitches and dishonest referees anymore. You can be grateful when over-the-hill veterans return, but keep in mind that they'll only stay until they get a better offer (and by "better" I mean "from anywhere but here"). You can tell yourself that I'm just saying this because my team sucks, but you can't deny that today our league is a second-rate league filled with players who are desperate to leave ASAP.

[Bordon is gone!]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrincha

Sure it can, Bordon. Brasil is doing better on the Libertadores because the rest of the continent is also in bad shape. I agree that São Paulo (the club, not the state) is in a better situation - but even you guys, with all your organization, have to go around begging Betis to loan Ricardo Oliveira for a little while longer to improve your attack, because your previous star-forward left you as soon as an Euro team wanted an extra benchwarmer to complete their squad for a couple of months. Your star defender left you for a league that's not even among the top 5 in the world, because it was still better than SP and the crappy Brasilian league. SP is still the best-organized Brasilian club, but the fact that you only have shit up to your shoulders while the rest has shit up to their ears (and in Botafogo's case, we're scuba-diving in shit) doesn't mean that the league is doing well... it just means that you will probably be among the last to eat shit.

We're all gradually getting accustomed to the lower quality of football displayed in the Brasileiro, to almost all games being decided by refereeing errors, to players that treat our clubs as "temp jobs" while they wait for their turn to leave (even a well-paid pampered "superstar" like Robinho went on a strike and vanished from the oh-so-organized Santos when the club refused to sell him, because the club didn't really mean jack shit to him)... and as they get more and more accustomed to this widespread decadence, some fans are gradually losing sight of how great Brasilian football used to be.

The fact that the rest of South America is ALSO sucking donkey balls, and that teams from other states are doing even worse than your own, shouldn't blind you to the obvious decadence of domestic Brasilian football as a whole, Bordon. You're old enough to remember what great championships we used to have, when the Brasileiro was still a reference of quality in World Football... a quality that is almost entirely gone now. We used to have six or seven really great teams challenging for the national championship in any given year, now we have a couple and that's it - the rest is barely-watchable crap, including teams that challenge for the "top 5" like Santos.

Rio's football DOES stink worse than soiled underwear nowadays, I don't see how anyone can realistically dispute that. What I'm saying is Brasilian football as a whole is going down the same drain that claimed Rio football; Rio's clubs simply began their decadence earlier. But hey, as long as there are clubs in even worse shape than yours, you're free to embrace the illusion of a greatness that is undeniably slipping away with every passing year. You can rejoyce when a second-rate Euro team graciously loans your club one of their players, so that player's injury can be treated and he can regain his form, and as soon as he's in form the player will return to a better league, greatly relieved for not having to suffer through our crappy pitches and dishonest referees anymore. You can be grateful when over-the-hill veterans return, but keep in mind that they'll only stay until they get a better offer (and by "better" I mean "from anywhere but here"). You can tell yourself that I'm just saying this because my team sucks, but you can't deny that today our league is a second-rate league filled with players who are desperate to leave ASAP.

Garrincha, you made several points to which I disagree. Let me treat some of them:

(1) You said that Sao Paulo begged a second rate Euro team for a striker. Other way to see it is: Sao Paulo loaned the BEST BRAZILIAN STRIKER in activity, which happened to be under contract with a so-called second rate Euro team (but now plays for a first rate Euro team). Alas, Betis used the services of Sao Paulo's reject Tardelli to escape from relegation.

(2) On the decadence of clubs. That is a feature we will have to live: in the league system, it is very difficult to have several teams competing for the title. In the next few years, the illusion that every "clube grande" is big will disappear, and 3-4 clubs will dominate the Brasileiro like in every other league format competition.

(3) Not sure about the decadence of clubs. Forget about Sao Paulo. Corinthians is talent-wise in the same level as any other Corinthians that I remember with the exception of their late 90s squad. Inter is doing great thanks.

(4) The problem with the Carioca football is that the clubs are run by total incompetents. Where are the stadia for Fluminense and Botafogo?!? I hear about those projects since the 1980s. I will keep hearing about them when I get old and senile, I am afraid.

(5) Players leaving. Yes, they leave, but they also come back. In the last few months, Amoroso, Magrao, Cesar, Vargas, Reasco, Geovanni, Valdivia, Ze Roberto etc signed with Brazilian teams. Some of them are veterans, but that does not mean anything, there are several players over 35 starting at top Euro clubs too (and none of our repatriated veterans are over 35). At the same rate, Euro teams have been ready to sign some of our rejects and misfits (See Tardelli at PSV)

[Bordon is gone!]

Another disagreement is on your assessment of the past.

Yes, there were plenty of superstars in the Brazilian league in the early eighties and late seventies. But since then, the best Brazilian players went abroad.

[Grinch]

I don't know, Bordon, maybe you're right. For a while now I've been gradually becoming disenchanted with the poorer level of football displayed in our domestic league, and I sincerely don't mean just in Botafogo's or cariocas' games... the number of silly technical/tactical mistakes committed by all teams is alarming, refereeing in general has never sucked harder, the players are increasingly pampered and eager to leave for the first offer... looking at all this sometimes leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

But you've made good points there, and to be honest I do hope that I'm wrong and you're right in this case; maybe my perceptions are indeed just being colored by the current suckiness of my own team, which is undeniably a less depressing idea than "we're all going down the drain together" (which, sadly, is what I believe right now). I'm not going to question your arguments now; not only because I have work waiting for me, but also because it wouldn't be very constructive of me to keep ranting on and on about how everything sucks in Brasilian football... it's a very negative perspective, which might easily become unpleasant for all the good people in this forum who disagree with me about all this, yourself included. I don't want to be the forum's depressing herald-of-doom "Urubulino", even because I don't like urubus in the first place.

After work I'll drop by, and if there's interest we can discuss this some more.

[JCamilo]

I think the problem is only saying that, for example, Lugano left for a league that still was best than SP; he left because of the money that went around and around.
Overall (for example, Boca Jrs team is actually quite good) we do not have great teams in the world for long.
In Europe they seem to forget how to do it, several clubs exist only to have players moving and moving, to stars and that is all. A few clubs give up a time for a coach to build the team, a few can manage to have quality, group and a team.
Here, the teams are always running after something in desperation - time is not a luxury, the demmands are sometimes ridiculous. There is not many interesting teams but I would agree, Internacional is a quite nice team; São Paulo had their momments and it seems they dropped quality because a defeat and maybe the physical preparation was set for that period and they will also rebuild now. Gremio is quite a solid team.
In each league we will find this, Chelsea far from brillant but very well build by Mourinho, Wenger very nice work at Arsenal - Barcelona stands out in spain, Lyon in france. The Italians will probally need some extra time to settle things this season yet. But really, I do not think it is our darkest momment, while it may not be a great individual-wise show in our regional league.

[HeitorTevez]

There are some things that really worries me. The players wanting to leave and ignoring the clubs that they were playing. Yes, this happen, and very often. This week I read, when making the pre-match report for Corinthians' game, that the poor form that Paraná showed after the end of the first turn of the Brasileiro was because the main players of the team received offers and were with their minds in Europe already. They stopped to work hard for their team, because Paraná would be their team for a short time and soon they'll be in another place. This happen mainly with young players. Now we see players that were playing for youth squads of their teams going abroad to play in another league and, after some years, they get famous and we didn't ever remember them. Or players that are less than a year in their teams, play good games, and leave, like Anderson and Vágner Love, and possibly Marcelo. And the famous cases of Robinho and Tevez, of course. But this happen in other parts of the world. Players from the minor european countries leave their clubs to go to one of "the six" countries. Even a great club like Juventus had to see many players leaving because of the relegation to a minor league.

But not all the players prefer to be a reserve player in a european team, or to play in a minor league. Amoroso and César weren't playing in their clubs, so they returned. Zé Roberto didn't receive good offers, so he had to go to Santos. In Europe thay can receive media exposure, and being a reserve player doesn't bring it to the player, so Brazil is the solution. The money is another factor that takes our players from our teams to european teams, and it's the main factor for our players to go to eastern europe teams, that receive less media exposure than Italy-Germany-Spain-Portugal-France-England(the six).

But our teams can still play well against some european teams, like(ugh!) São Paulo last year against Liverpool, the world teams are not so better than Brazilian teams.

To tell the truth I created this thread to be a "Future Stars" thread for Brazilian players...

[Grinch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeitorTevez

To tell the truth I created this thread to be a "Future Stars" thread for Brazilian players...

I figured that, Heitor, and I'm sorry for changing the subject with my rant.

But since you've mentioned "future stars" threads - doesn't anyone else get tired of all the "how good is this player that my club wants to sign?" questions that we regularly get from Euro fans here, as if we were shopping-mall salesmen? I do, and it annoys me even more when the player in question is underage. Sometimes I answer by saying that the player sucks even if that's not true, just for the hell of it.

[JCamilo]

And the funny part is that sometimes saying "the player sucks" is the truth and they still want to buy it.
That is one of the things I dislike about Atletico - smart people lure the europeans and send the trash to them. Then Atletico hire them back! It is ridiculous, your league would certainly be in a better shape if , beside losing top players, we did not signed back the crap players leaving them in waterver league outside. At least it would be in a balanced thing
C'mom,how ridiculous can a club that sign twice Fabio Jr?

[Cerezo Mineiro]

A small part of the problem is the way the publico treat the players - a hero won minute an a burro the next - same with the tecnicos. No respect in futebol Brasileiro and even less in Brazilian life.

[Bordon is gone!]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sao Taffarel

A small part of the problem is the way the publico treat the players - a hero won minute an a burro the next - same with the tecnicos. No respect in futebol Brasileiro and even less in Brazilian life.

That is true. One loses a single game, and is treated as trash by the "supporters" --- No wonder players show less loyalty to the clubs.

E.g. in the aftermath of Palmeiras victory over Corinthians in the Libertadores in 2000, a few months after Corinthians had won the FIFA World Club Championship, in a game in which both teams played great football. What happened? Corinthians supporters beated up Vampeta and Edilson... Same this year, less than 12 months after he gave Corinthians a national title, Tevez was attacked by a mob while driving the car with his wife and baby girl. Animals!

[Mengão86]

lol, how quickly the tide turns for teams in our league? Botafogo had two excellent results in the Brasileirao recently, both were goleadas. Botafogo fans were on an emotional high and then they collapse as quickly as they "rose." A loss to their rivals Flamengo, a screw job loss to Flu (x 2) and a goleada at the hands of Gremio.

[Mengão86]

In regards to the topic, I believe we are still developing players to replace the older players. I also agree with some points that Garrincha made, mainly that the quality has dipped in recent years. I just wished we handled our younger talent better than what we do now..

[Fabio Manic]

and lucas is already on his way!

I have to agree with garrincha here. clubs used to hold on to their players in the 80s and 90s, at least for a bit longer (yeah, I'm only 25. heheheh. that's as far as my football memory can recall).

actually, I have a feeling brazil used to be better in the nineties. brazil, the nation in which we live, I mean. not the nt. yeah, maybe the nt too. so basically, our country has a shit goverment and a shit football league as well. cheers to you all.

[JCamilo]

Depends the momment - For example, Cruzeiro of 2003 was awesome, perhaps only the Tele's Sao Paulo could be superior to that.
I think the main key in the world is irregularity, we have a competition that is split in two halves - that is not good.
But now I know what happened, Garrincha was posseded by Calazans spirit

[HeitorTevez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrincha

I figured that, Heitor, and I'm sorry for changing the subject with my rant.

But since you've mentioned "future stars" threads - doesn't anyone else get tired of all the "how good is this player that my club wants to sign?" questions that we regularly get from Euro fans here, as if we were shopping-mall salesmen? I do, and it annoys me even more when the player in question is underage. Sometimes I answer by saying that the player sucks even if that's not true, just for the hell of it.

I noticed it. Lately I saw threads about Denílson(São Paulo), Rafael Sóbis(Internacional), Marcelo(Fluminense), Lucas(Grêmio) and even about Lenílson(São Paulo) and Alecsandro(Cruzeiro). This is really annoying, but it's the reality of our football.

I will admit that this is one of the factors of the opening of this thread, many threads about our players(adding Anderson and Daniel Alves). The other reason was the need of new threads.

[Grinch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCamilo

But now I know what happened, Garrincha was posseded by Calazans spirit

JC, that's the most offensive thing you've ever said about me. I briefly considered reporting that post as an insult.

[Grinch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeitorTevez

I will admit that this is one of the factors of the opening of this thread, many threads about our players(adding Anderson and Daniel Alves). The other reason was the need of new threads.

Good idea, HT.