Macedonian history thread

[philiptheuniter]

SIlent One. Please no insults on this thread. Keep it respectful.

Christos 7. Your arguements are definately strong. Keep up the good work and keep the facts and truths coming.

[SilentOne]

Hehe why do Macedonians even speak with you? you got answer on your questions so what do people complain on?

I'm out from this very low level forum and Balkan people just make me smile.....


Just leave the Macedonians alone.....

[Anomander Rake]

Quote:

I was very curious why Serbs,Bulgarian, and Greek treat the Macedonian history and the Macedonians like they do and I have got all the logic answers why......


leave the Macedonians alone and from what I read from independent sources Macedonians should be angry at greeks,serbians and bulgarians and not you at them and don't try to steal the Macedonian history to hide an occupation.

You can never be sure that you got all the logic answers, plus logic is not playing a big role when nationalism is involved. Moreover, both sides are claiming that "their" history has been stolen. Your long post was certainly very interesting, btw.

[Christos7]

All I see is in that post, is your general propaganda considered in a nutshell. And by a man supposedly "seeking the truth, unbias" completely taking the stance as his Slavic/Bulgarian/Fyromian associates.


I am infact in the process of breaking down and answering his "logic" and "unbias answers". I will post when I am finished, but it will take some time seeing as alot of BS was written in your very well copied and pasted reply of anothers work.


I am half way done as of right now (have to leave) but I am already noticing a huge lack of historical evidence and only but one mans personal point of view. He seems to be jumping around alot and not giving any concrete answers as to why he believes this way, only that he does. It's alot of shady evidence and half truths, denying a huge section of the other side also.


Very interesting coming from an unbias source. Can't wait until I finish, I hope some other Greeks are taking the time to do this also, i'm sure some of them (most of them) can do even a better job than I can.


In the meantime, I leave you with a few more QUOTES from Ancient Historians:

Quote:

What did the Macedonians think of themselves?

It is very clear from the surviving ancient sources that the Macedonians considered themselves to be Greeks.

In Herodotus (Book 9, paragraph 45.2) Alexander I , king of Macedonia says:


"... I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery ..."
Alexander III (the Great) talking to the king of the Persians says: (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)


"Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury [...] I have been appointed hegemon of the Greeks [...] "

Arrian ("Alexander the Great" 1,16,7) describes the following incident: After winning an important battle in Asia ...
"
He [Alexander the Great] sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander son of Philip and the Hellenes, except the Lacedaemonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia"
(Diodoros of Sicily 16.93.1)
"Every seat in the theater was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was protected by the goodwill of all the Hellenes, and had no need of a guard of spearmen."

And from Flavious Josephus (11.8.5) we have the following incident where Alexander clearly considers himself a Greek:


"And when the book of Daniel was showed to him (Alexander the Great) wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended"

Quote:

What did the rest of the Greeks think?

The ancient Greek people alwayws considered the Macedonians to be Greek as well. This can be easily proved because the Macedonians were members of all the Greek institutions, such as the Delphic amphictiony:

Pausanias writes in his book "Description of Greece" (10.3.3):

"The Phocians were deprived of their share in the Delphic sanctuary and in the Greek assembly, and their votes were given by the Amphictyons to the Macedonians."
and also in his book "Phokis" (8,2 & 4):
"They say that these were the tribes collected by Amphiktyon himself in the Hellenic Assembly: [...] the Macedonians joined and the entire Phocian race [...] In my day there were thirty members: six from each of Nikopolis, Macedonia and Thessaly [...] "
Aeschines (On the Embassy 2.32) gives evidence of the Macedonian king Amyntas taking part at the congress of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks:

"For at a congress of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks, in which Amyntas, the father of Philip, being entitled to a seat, was represented by a delegate whose vote was absolutely under his control, he joined the other Greeks in voting to help Athens to recover possession of Amphipolis. As proof of this I presented from the public records the resolution of the Greek congress and the names of those who voted".
Isocratis, one of the most impotant orators of ancient Greece says in his speach "To Philip" addressed to King Philip II of Macedonia (Paragaraph 127):


"Therefore, since the others are so lacking in spirit, I think it is opportune for you to head the war against the King; and, while it is only natural for the other descendants of Heracles, and for men who are under the bonds of their polities and laws, to cleave fondly to that state in which they happen to dwell, it is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Greece your fatherland, as did the founder of your race, and to be as ready to brave perils for her sake as for the things about which you are personally most concerned."
The Sicilian historian Diodoros says in his history about King Philip of Macedonia (Diodoros, Historical Library 16.95.1-2)
"Such was the end of Philip, who had made himself the greatest of the kings in Europe in his time, and because of the extent of his kingdom had made himself a throned companion of the twelve gods. He had ruled twenty-four years. He is known to fame as one who with but the slenderest resources to support his claim to a throne won for himself the greatest empire in the Greek world, while the growth of his position was not due so much to his prowess in arms as to his adroitness and cordiality in diplomacy.
Even the Persians considerd Macedonia a part of Greece! The Persian king Mardonius says : (From the Histories of Herodotus Book 7, Paragraph 9.1-2).


"We know the manner of their battle- we know how weak their power is; already have we subdued their children who dwell in our country, the Ionians, Aeolians, and Dorians. I myself have had experience of these men when I marched against them by the orders of thy father; and though I went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself, yet not a soul ventured to come out against me to battle. [...] Yet the Greeks are accustomed to wage wars, as I learn, and they do it most senselessly in their wrongheadedness and folly [...]. Since they speak the same language, they should end their disputes by means of heralds or messengers, or by any way rather than fighting; if they must make war upon each other, they should each discover where they are in the strongest position and make the attempt there. The Greek custom, then, is not good; and when I marched as far as the land of Macedonia, it had not come into their minds to fight."
Mardonius marched against the Greeks and he "went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself". Obviously he considers Macedonia a part of Greece!

Pretty freaking obvious from these quotes, isn't it?

[Christos7]

And real quick, before I leave, I would like to adress point number one from our amigo's post, before posting the rest.

Quote:

1. Three thousand years ago the lands that came to be called Macedonia were inhabited mainly by Illyrians and Phrygians. The Macedonians who appeared around 700 to 800 B.C. were for centuries a small group confined to a very small area of land. This area of land is a tiny portion of what is now Greek Macedonia. The language of these Macedonians was not Greek, nor were their gods; nor were they recognized by the Greeks. In time their leaders aspired to be as culturally refined and politically powerful as the Greeks, and used Greek teachers for their children. By about the fourth century B.C. the Macedonian nobles often used Greek for official purposes, but they and the common people spoke the Macedonian vernacular at home. A version of the Greek language had become an important trade language in the area and was widely used for such purposes. This variety of Greek was from the southern Greek states, and its use proves nothing at all about the native tongue of the Macedonians, which, if it had been Greek, would likely have been a different dialect. In any case, there are no inscriptions in any form of Greek from before about 400 B.C. found in material excavated in any part of Macedonia. Of course there were small Greek settlements in coastal areas of Macedonia, and until the Macedonians conquered the area, the Chalcidice peninsula was Greek.

Nice fairytail.

Now I would like to see some historical evidence backed up by this "truth" and some evidence of this Macedonian language that was so prevelant in those times.

I have been waiting for some time for this.

It's hilarious they all keep pointing to this seperate language, yet in all of my research and study not once have I came across it. This from a man that had one of the biggest Empire's in the worlds history. You think a page from somewhere containing something would have made it's way down to give some kind of support to this theory. A people with thousands of years worth of history, and no evidence whatsoever of their so called language. (or is there but so many just wont accept it? )

[Ambis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex-10

Alexander commanded his Macedonian troops in Macedonian and the Greeks didn't understand how can this be? simple Macedonian was a seperate language and saying that it is a dialect of Greek is simply not true because the dialects never differed that one could not understand each other and Macedonians were refered to barbarians(not greek)



Demosthenes gave the following insulting remark about the Macedonian King Philip II of Macedon:
"That man Philip, not only he is NOT Greek, but also he does not have anything in common with the "Greeks". If only he would have been a BARBARIAN from a decent COUNTRY - but he is not even that. He is a scabby creature from MACEDONIA- a land that one can not even bring a slave that is worth something from".

I'll leave it at that!!!



Demosthenes' WHOLE policy was an unparalleled fight for national unification of GREECE. In this period he deliberately threw off the constrains of the politician concerned exclusively with Athenian interests, and devoted himself to a task more lofty than any Greek statesman before him had ever projected or indeed could have projected. In this respect he is quite comparable to Isocrates; but an important point of contrast still remains. The difference is simply that Demosthenes did not think of this "unification" as a more or less voluntary submission to the will of the conqueror; on the contrary, he demanded a uprising of all the Greeks against the MACEDONIAN FOE.


Just like your propaganda nowdays?



I dont see why not, who would want their country taken over by "barbarians" (foreigners)?



Isocrates never for an instant thought of a politically unified state under Philip's leadership. It is simply the internal unification of Hellas which he calls on Philip to bring about.Looking far beyond the actualities of the Greek world, hopelessly split asunder as it was, he (Isocrates) had envisaged a united nation led by the Macedonian king

But for Isocrates that was no obstacle. He had long since come to recognize the impossibility of resisting Macedonia, and he was only trying to find the least humiliating way to express the unavoidable submission of all the Greeks to the will of Philip. Here again he found the solution in a scheme for Macedonian hegemony over Greece. For it seems as if Philip's appearance in this role would be most effective way to mitigate his becoming so dominant a factor in Greek history; moreover, it ought to silence all Greek prejudices against the culturally and ethnically alien character of the Macedonians...

Demosthenes did the complete opposite he wanted the greeks to unite AGAINST the Macedonian foe...

If This was the Panhellenic crusade preached by Isocrates, and as such the king’s propaganda section continued - for the time being - to present it. No one, so far as we know, was tactless enough to ask the obvious question: if this was a Panhellenic crusade, where were the "Greek" troops?




Alexander's troops consisted mainly of Macedonian troops which he treated as his kinsmen out of about 42 thousound troops or so troops approx only 6 thousand were Greeks and the Greeks went along mainly to ensure good relations amongst the Macedonians and the Greek people who Alexander and the Macedonians conquered...





If we were to assume that some of the Macedonian names have "Greek" meanings and thereby must be considered "Greek" names, then, we must look elsewhere for comparable evidence in order to make a conclusive decision about it. Since Philip and Alexander have Greek etymology, after all "Philipos" lover of horses, and "Alexander" the protector of men, have Greek meanings. But, then again, we ask: what about the Persian names? Greeks have Greek etymology for all Persian names that we find in the literature. For example: Darius, the Persian king, means "worker" (erxies) Xerxes, another Persian king, means "warrior" (areios), Habrocomes, which means soft in Greek (habro) Harmarnithres, which means "chariot" in Greek (harma) Harpagus, which means "plunderer" in Greek (harpage) and so on.
Hold up so the Persians are Greek? Dude names like that were common in those days just like Alex is nowadays...





Macedonians did not worship the same Gods as the Greeks either. The fact that many Gods were found worshiped by both peoples can be attributed to the Greek desire to find Greek equivalent God with other people's deities. Pan, Asiris, Hera, Hestia, Themis, Dioscuri have no Greek origin and are not "Greek" Gods, but they all have a Greek equivalent. Besides, aren't most Greek Gods in fact Egyptian Gods? the answer is yes Greek gods are borrowed from Egypt; exceptions are Poseidon, the Dioscuri, Hera, Hestia, Themis, the Graces and the Nereids.

It is not the Sun is not a "Greek" symbol it is purely Macedonian it was found in old churches and Greeks never knew of it's existence until 50 or more years ago and its a SUN hence the colours RED AND YELLOW like in our flag not like your Greek propaganda making it Gold with a blue background...




1) Language= own language not a "greek" dialect...

2) Religion= own MACEDONIAN gods

3) Blood= Macedonian

Conclusion 1+2+3= Macedonia was, is and will allways be Macedonian

Writing of the ancient author Plutarch:
'Soon after his death the people of Athens paid him fitting honours by erecting his statue in bronze, and by decreeing that the eldest member of his family should be maintained in the prytaneum at the public expense. On the base of his statue was carved his famous inscription: 'If only your strength had been equal, Demosthenes, to your wisdom Never would Greece have been ruled by a 'MACEDONIAN ARES'

"Macedonian Ares" clearly states that it is not the Greek God Ares, but a Macedonian god equivalent to the Greek Ares, whose name they had substituted with Ares.

In the ancient Greek texts we also find the Greeks referring to one Egyptian God as Egyptian Athena. Of course, the real name of this Egyptian god can not be Athena (just like the name of the Macedonian god above was not Ares)

My work here is done. I apologise to all for the long post...

Well put Alex great job

[Ambis]

Greek Member State Committee of EBLUL

The Greek Member State Committee of European Bureau for Less Used Languages is deeply concerned about an incident that took place at the Greek State Television (ERT) and constitutes a flagrant abuse to the core principles of respect to diversity and multiculturalism.GMSC was informed that NET, the 2nd channel of ERT, indefinitely postponed the broadcast of Sunday’s (21.3.2005) “Taxidevontas stin Ellada” (Traveling in Greece), dedicated to Florina region of W. Macedonia.

According to the presenter of the show, the official justification for this decision was that in the edited (ready-to-air) version some inhabitants of villages in the region said on camera that their mother tongue was Macedonian and was completely banned from the Greek state for decades. The ERT directors obviously concluded that such public statements could found claims for existence of a linguistic minority that Greece does not officially recognize and decided to ban the broadcast.

GMSC of EBLUL wishes to condemn such acts with the most categorical way. Especially when they come from an E.U. member state that only a few months ago hosted the Olympic Games under the motto “Celebrating cultures, celebrating diversity”. Not only that but the above incident happened during the European Week Against Racism.

Seems that for yet another time, Greece chooses not to respect the basic right of its own citizens to freely express their opinion and continues the policy of extremely limited and absolutely selective presentation of cultural and linguistic diversity at the state-owned media.


The old lady in the village Akritas of Florina region, complained about the abandoning of the village from the young people.She also talked about the hard times they had in past for speaking their mother tongue which she called "makedonika".The reporter accompanied with Mrs Voskopoulou who was something like the local host and guide, mentioned that the village formerly known as "Buf" and "Bufi" was burned by the turks durring the ilinden uprising.In the last part of the program the TV group was invited in a tavern with folklor music in the village Alona. they did take interview with the musicians who said that until a few years ago they werent alowed to sing in the local idiom, and after this they spoke with a some "guys" who were drinking.They talked about the political refuges who can not return to their homes etc. the point is that one of the speakers was Pavlos Voskopoulos one of the founders of Rainbow!

btw-93,3 FM Macedonian Radio in Chalkidiki:
In Aegean Macedonia Greece's northern part where many ethnic Macedonians live, now they will hear the new Macedonian Radio - Channel 1 slowly but surely our people are getting there deserved rights

[Ambis]

AN OPEN LETTER AND A CHALLENGE TO ATHENS - IF You Have The Courage!

The Greeks and their corrupt, meandering government have been hiding behind their fingers for decades!Their positions with regards to anything surrounding Macedonia or the Macedonian Question change on a regular basis, to suit their own ignoble purposes at any given time!The position of the Greek regime regarding Macedonia has changed several times over the past century! One minute they deny the very existence of Macedonia or anything Macedonian - the next minute, when it benefits their cause, they decide they are all the true Macedonians.Make up your minds!

A CHALLENGE TO ATHENS -

If you all want to be called Macedonians you must -

1) Officially change Greece's name to "Macedonia" (that should go over well with your people!)

2) Adopt the Star of Kutlesh as your state flag (you claim it's a true "Greek" symbol, anyways, so it shouldn't be too difficult to convince your people to adopt it!)

3) Repatriate the 30,000 ethnic Macedonian children you expelled in 1948 (according to your official position, "they're ALL Greeks", anyways!)

If you can do these three little things, you will be well on your way to convincing the rest of world that your historical claims are accurate and that your motives are pure.It is blatantly obvious to a blind and deaf person that your claims are not accurate, that your motives are far from pure and that you are unprepared to initiate ANY of the aforementioned suggestions, so why not JUST GIVE UP? You "Greeks" are a mix of Romans, Slavs, Turks, Albanians and Jews, who appropriated the language of a long dead "Hellenic" people who inhabited your present territory before you, in an attempt to support your false historical and land claim issues! There is NOTHING "Hellenic" about you! Go learn about your own history and roots before you presume to preach to somebody else about theirs!

[g00nis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambis

You "Greeks" are a mix of Romans, Slavs, Turks, Albanians and Jews, who appropriated the language of a long dead "Hellenic" people who inhabited your present territory before you, in an attempt to support your false historical and land claim issues! There is NOTHING "Hellenic" about you! Go learn about your own history and roots before you presume to preach to somebody else about theirs!

So what happened to the original Greeks buddy? What are the FYROMians Spartans and Athenians now too?


Hey, maybe a thousand years from now when Canada is claiming that the state of Michigan was actually Canadian than the US should change its name to "Michigan" to put those uppity Canadians in their places... give me a ****ing break

[vlepnat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentOne

Christos7

You have all the answers in my last post that you ask for. Read the post and you will faind all the answers you look for and you only need to use your logic if you have any in Greece..... You have the answer about the language in the post.

I just had to give you a very logic and objective picture of how you treat Macedonians and you really need to start to see the whole pic in greece and not hide behind in my eye nothing.....

I was very curious why Serbs,Bulgarian, and Greek treat the Macedonian history and the Macedonians like they do and I have got all the logic answers why......



leave the Macedonians alone and from what I read from independent sources Macedonians should be angry at greeks,serbians and bulgarians and not you at them and don't try to steal the Macedonian history to hide an occupation.

Look at this. Coming from a neutral. LOL u Greek guys are sad, u guys have no idea what day it is.

[Christos7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambis

Greek Member State Committee of EBLUL

The Greek Member State Committee of European Bureau for Less Used Languages is deeply concerned about an incident that took place at the Greek State Television (ERT) and constitutes a flagrant abuse to the core principles of respect to diversity and multiculturalism.GMSC was informed that NET, the 2nd channel of ERT, indefinitely postponed the broadcast of Sunday’s (21.3.2005) “Taxidevontas stin Ellada” (Traveling in Greece), dedicated to Florina region of W. Macedonia.

According to the presenter of the show, the official justification for this decision was that in the edited (ready-to-air) version some inhabitants of villages in the region said on camera that their mother tongue was Macedonian and was completely banned from the Greek state for decades. The ERT directors obviously concluded that such public statements could found claims for existence of a linguistic minority that Greece does not officially recognize and decided to ban the broadcast.

GMSC of EBLUL wishes to condemn such acts with the most categorical way. Especially when they come from an E.U. member state that only a few months ago hosted the Olympic Games under the motto “Celebrating cultures, celebrating diversity”. Not only that but the above incident happened during the European Week Against Racism.

Seems that for yet another time, Greece chooses not to respect the basic right of its own citizens to freely express their opinion and continues the policy of extremely limited and absolutely selective presentation of cultural and linguistic diversity at the state-owned media.


The old lady in the village Akritas of Florina region, complained about the abandoning of the village from the young people.She also talked about the hard times they had in past for speaking their mother tongue which she called "makedonika".The reporter accompanied with Mrs Voskopoulou who was something like the local host and guide, mentioned that the village formerly known as "Buf" and "Bufi" was burned by the turks durring the ilinden uprising.In the last part of the program the TV group was invited in a tavern with folklor music in the village Alona. they did take interview with the musicians who said that until a few years ago they werent alowed to sing in the local idiom, and after this they spoke with a some "guys" who were drinking.They talked about the political refuges who can not return to their homes etc. the point is that one of the speakers was Pavlos Voskopoulos one of the founders of Rainbow!

btw-93,3 FM Macedonian Radio in Chalkidiki:
In Aegean Macedonia Greece's northern part where many ethnic Macedonians live, now they will hear the new Macedonian Radio - Channel 1 slowly but surely our people are getting there deserved rights

HA. There is no "Macedonian Language"!!!!


There are many people there, Greeks included, who were FORCED and had IMPOSED on them this Slavic/Bulgarian language, who to this day older ones speak it, and can tell you why.

Go ask them!!!!!!!!! I have!!!!!!!!!!!


PROPAGANDA.


There are no such thing as "Ethnic Macedonians" coming from you people WHO ARE SLAVS. (BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, READ LONG POST ON EARLIER PAGE)


Rainbow party.... what a fitting name...... Propagandists at their best.


Kudos to the reporters and TV station. What a load of CRAP.

[Ambis]

Macedonia within Turkey before 1912 and its partition in 1913 among Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Albania.

Quote:

There are no such thing as "Ethnic Macedonians" coming from you people WHO ARE SLAVS. (BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, READ LONG POST ON EARLIER PAGE)

The ancient Macedonians were a distinct European people, conscious and proud of their nationality, their customs, their language, and their name. The same applies to the modern Macedonians today.

[GiannisAEK]

Well it looks like the FYROMites ignored your posts Christo. What a shame, i guess when they cant properly argue something they ignore it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vlepnat

Look at this. Coming from a neutral. LOL u Greek guys are sad, u guys have no idea what day it is.

vlepnat I suggest you read the whole thread before you post. Here you go:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christos7

All I see is in that post, is your general propaganda considered in a nutshell. And by a man supposedly "seeking the truth, unbias" completely taking the stance as his Slavic/Bulgarian/Fyromian associates.


I am infact in the process of breaking down and answering his "logic" and "unbias answers". I will post when I am finished, but it will take some time seeing as alot of BS was written in your very well copied and pasted reply of anothers work.


I am half way done as of right now (have to leave) but I am already noticing a huge lack of historical evidence and only but one mans personal point of view. He seems to be jumping around alot and not giving any concrete answers as to why he believes this way, only that he does. It's alot of shady evidence and half truths, denying a huge section of the other side also.

Very interesting coming from an unbias source. Can't wait until I finish, I hope some other Greeks are taking the time to do this also, i'm sure some of them (most of them) can do even a better job than I can.


In the meantime, I leave you with a few more QUOTES from Ancient Historians:

Quote:

What did the Macedonians think of themselves?

It is very clear from the surviving ancient sources that the Macedonians considered themselves to be Greeks.

In Herodotus (Book 9, paragraph 45.2) Alexander I , king of Macedonia says:


"... I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery ..."
Alexander III (the Great) talking to the king of the Persians says: (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)


"Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury [...] I have been appointed hegemon of the Greeks [...] "

Arrian ("Alexander the Great" 1,16,7) describes the following incident: After winning an important battle in Asia ...
"
He [Alexander the Great] sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander son of Philip and the Hellenes, except the Lacedaemonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia"
(Diodoros of Sicily 16.93.1)
"Every seat in the theater was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was protected by the goodwill of all the Hellenes, and had no need of a guard of spearmen."

And from Flavious Josephus (11.8.5) we have the following incident where Alexander clearly considers himself a Greek:


"And when the book of Daniel was showed to him (Alexander the Great) wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended"

Quote:

What did the rest of the Greeks think?

The ancient Greek people alwayws considered the Macedonians to be Greek as well. This can be easily proved because the Macedonians were members of all the Greek institutions, such as the Delphic amphictiony:

Pausanias writes in his book "Description of Greece" (10.3.3):

"The Phocians were deprived of their share in the Delphic sanctuary and in the Greek assembly, and their votes were given by the Amphictyons to the Macedonians."
and also in his book "Phokis" (8,2 & 4):
"They say that these were the tribes collected by Amphiktyon himself in the Hellenic Assembly: [...] the Macedonians joined and the entire Phocian race [...] In my day there were thirty members: six from each of Nikopolis, Macedonia and Thessaly [...] "
Aeschines (On the Embassy 2.32) gives evidence of the Macedonian king Amyntas taking part at the congress of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks:

"For at a congress of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks, in which Amyntas, the father of Philip, being entitled to a seat, was represented by a delegate whose vote was absolutely under his control, he joined the other Greeks in voting to help Athens to recover possession of Amphipolis. As proof of this I presented from the public records the resolution of the Greek congress and the names of those who voted".
Isocratis, one of the most impotant orators of ancient Greece says in his speach "To Philip" addressed to King Philip II of Macedonia (Paragaraph 127):


"Therefore, since the others are so lacking in spirit, I think it is opportune for you to head the war against the King; and, while it is only natural for the other descendants of Heracles, and for men who are under the bonds of their polities and laws, to cleave fondly to that state in which they happen to dwell, it is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Greece your fatherland, as did the founder of your race, and to be as ready to brave perils for her sake as for the things about which you are personally most concerned."
The Sicilian historian Diodoros says in his history about King Philip of Macedonia (Diodoros, Historical Library 16.95.1-2)
"Such was the end of Philip, who had made himself the greatest of the kings in Europe in his time, and because of the extent of his kingdom had made himself a throned companion of the twelve gods. He had ruled twenty-four years. He is known to fame as one who with but the slenderest resources to support his claim to a throne won for himself the greatest empire in the Greek world, while the growth of his position was not due so much to his prowess in arms as to his adroitness and cordiality in diplomacy.
Even the Persians considerd Macedonia a part of Greece! The Persian king Mardonius says : (From the Histories of Herodotus Book 7, Paragraph 9.1-2).


"We know the manner of their battle- we know how weak their power is; already have we subdued their children who dwell in our country, the Ionians, Aeolians, and Dorians. I myself have had experience of these men when I marched against them by the orders of thy father; and though I went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself, yet not a soul ventured to come out against me to battle. [...] Yet the Greeks are accustomed to wage wars, as I learn, and they do it most senselessly in their wrongheadedness and folly [...]. Since they speak the same language, they should end their disputes by means of heralds or messengers, or by any way rather than fighting; if they must make war upon each other, they should each discover where they are in the strongest position and make the attempt there. The Greek custom, then, is not good; and when I marched as far as the land of Macedonia, it had not come into their minds to fight."
Mardonius marched against the Greeks and he "went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself". Obviously he considers Macedonia a part of Greece!

Need I say more. From now on I wont even bother manually retyping our arguments since we have done it about a million times. I’m just going to copy and paste all our arguments. They obviously have no answers or else they would have tried to properly formulate a good response. This alone shows you how much claim they have at being the desendance of the ancient Macedonian Greeks.

Regardless I’m not worried at all since history and fact is on our side. Although it is annoying how they keep trying so hard. Sad.

*ps some good posts chirsto. Ill join in later on once im done my classes.

[Christos7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambis

AN OPEN LETTER AND A CHALLENGE TO ATHENS - IF You Have The Courage!

The Greeks and their corrupt, meandering government have been hiding behind their fingers for decades!Their positions with regards to anything surrounding Macedonia or the Macedonian Question change on a regular basis, to suit their own ignoble purposes at any given time!The position of the Greek regime regarding Macedonia has changed several times over the past century! One minute they deny the very existence of Macedonia or anything Macedonian - the next minute, when it benefits their cause, they decide they are all the true Macedonians.Make up your minds!

A CHALLENGE TO ATHENS -

If you all want to be called Macedonians you must -

1) Officially change Greece's name to "Macedonia" (that should go over well with your people!)

2) Adopt the Star of Kutlesh as your state flag (you claim it's a true "Greek" symbol, anyways, so it shouldn't be too difficult to convince your people to adopt it!)

3) Repatriate the 30,000 ethnic Macedonian children you expelled in 1948 (according to your official position, "they're ALL Greeks", anyways!)

If you can do these three little things, you will be well on your way to convincing the rest of world that your historical claims are accurate and that your motives are pure.It is blatantly obvious to a blind and deaf person that your claims are not accurate, that your motives are far from pure and that you are unprepared to initiate ANY of the aforementioned suggestions, so why not JUST GIVE UP? You "Greeks" are a mix of Romans, Slavs, Turks, Albanians and Jews, who appropriated the language of a long dead "Hellenic" people who inhabited your present territory before you, in an attempt to support your false historical and land claim issues! There is NOTHING "Hellenic" about you! Go learn about your own history and roots before you presume to preach to somebody else about theirs!

WHAT A DEMENTED PIECE OF LOGIC THIS IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Changing the name to Macedonia?

1) Why would we change our countries name from Greece to Macedonia
when not all Greeks are Macedonian?

Is the NOTHERN REGION OF GREECE WHICH IS CALLED MAKEDONIA NOT ENOUGH?

Why is it so hard to see Macedonia and Macedonians and only but a LINK IN THE CHAIN of what is called Greeece.

By using this logic, and having to change our name from Greece to Macedonia to prove some of the people are actually Macedonians, we must also change our name to "Thessaly" and "Epuris" and "Sparta" and "Athens" and so on and so on and so on. I guess we should show respect to every part of Greece, to prove who we are, and include them in our name.

Or just maybe, all of these peoples, all of these regions, ARE WHAT MAKE UP WHAT IS GREECE. My goodness what a logic that is!!


2) Why would we adopt the STAR OF VERGINA as our national flag? Just to prove some are Macedonians? See point #1. Maybe we should adopt a flag witha smybol from every piece representing eahc part of Greece. Or maybe the flag is ok the way it is.


3) Stop falsifying history, destablilizing the region, and recognize yourselves as you are, and maybe it will be a start.


Yeah, we aren't Greek but you are Ethnic Macedonians. You are the DUMBEST people I have ever come across. You deny such BLATANT HISTORY you have the nerve to call us blind and deaf.


YOU ARE SLAVS/Bulgars WHO SPEAK A BULGARIAN DIALECT!!! Where is this Ethnic Macedonia???

[Christos7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambis

Macedonia within Turkey before 1912 and its partition in 1913 among Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Albania.


The ancient Macedonians were a distinct European people, conscious and proud of their nationality, their customs, their language, and their name. The same applies to the modern Macedonians today.

1) WOULD YOU FREAKING PROVE IT TO ME ALREADY. I am still waiting to see evidence of this distinct LANGUAGE. You sure like to say it alot, but whent he time comes to prove it.........


2) Even if this were true about Ancient Macedonians, you are not anything near them. You are HARDLY a distinct European people (HELLO SLAVS ) as is your culture and customs, AND YOU SPEAK A BULGARIAN DIALECT. All your freaking names are Slavic for petes sake!!!!!!

[Anomander Rake]

Calm down a bit, no need for insults, OK?

[Christos7]

[Christos7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anomander Rake

Calm down a bit, no need for insults, OK?

Your right... i'm sorry. Even though I did control it (I only called them dumb 1 time ) I don't want to detract from the issue at hand. I am a Greek though.... we get emotional.

[Chxta]

The Greeks left us a lot IMO, yes, but the Romans left us one very important thing: Law and Order!

[GiannisAEK]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christos7

Your right... i'm sorry. Even though I did control it (I only called them dumb 1 time ) I don't want to detract from the issue at hand. I am a Greek though.... we get emotional.

.
Forget what i said
Howbout an FM makes a seperate thread for this?