New jersey for the national side

[Fleka]

Fellow Serbs and Montenegrins

I have recently read that the new national flag is only about a month away to being unveiled. I know that the flag will be Red Blue and White with the coat of arms which is still pending in the centre of the flag. The blue shade in the centre will be a compromise between the dark blue of Serbia and the pale blue of Montenegro. Now I am assuming that the National strip will also change. I personally have no problem with our strip being mainly blue. This will retain some tradition etc. Many nations around the world have strips which do not resemble their national flag. (Holland, Italy, Australia come to mind).

Has anyone heard anything in relation to this matter or have any suggestions ? I think that it is a very important issue.

[Borba]

Well the jerseys they are using now are relatively new, I dont see them changing any time soon.

[monte]

The new flag looks like a farce, 2 coats of arms in the mid, can you imagine?

The Dutch flag used to be orange white blue so the orange of the jersey does represent the [original] flag. I hope the Serbian jerseys remain blue. If anything else, then I'd choose white.

[Borba]

Quote:

Originally posted by monte
The new flag looks like a farce, 2 coats of arms in the mid, can you imagine?

The Dutch flag used to be orange white blue so the orange of the jersey does represent the [original] flag. I hope the Serbian jerseys remain blue. If anything else, then I'd choose white.

OMFG

surely you jest...

[Krle]

These kits never brought us any prizes (olympic medals excluded) so if they want to change them they have my blessing.

On the flag, I don't get it, first the namechange, the politicians representing half a million people feel they need to be "appreciated" as much as the other 10 to 12 million and now even want to ruin (cause I see it this way) the Serbian flag. No offence to you Monte or any other Montenegrins here as you're not responsible for it, politicians deserve all the "credit" for this.

But no wonder fans don't want to cheer on the NT, when we don't know who we'll be cheering on, one day it's called Sugoslavija, the next SiCG, what will it be called next year?!

Just to make it clear my thoughts on the matter, like most Serbs I'd like to see it this way

Name= Srbija
Anthem= Boze pravde
Flag= traditional red blue white

Pozdrav!

[Andrix]

The blue colour chosen for the joint flag is 300C, which is darker than both the Serbian and Montenegrin blue. The thing about 2 coats of arms was a political thing, the experts' panel designing the new flag responded right away that it would be impractical and highly expensive and that they won't submit such a proposal to parliament. Anywho, the way Montenegro's going, they'll be bankrupt in 3 years and then we can just annex them.

[Ben Akiba]

Historically, the first flag of the Principality of Serbia was red-white-steel blue, similar to the Croatian flag. However, our "patrons" Russians, found it "too revolutionary", resembling the French revolutionary colors. Thus, they demanded that Serbia adopt Russian colors but in the reverse order, which became Serbian tricolor. The Montengrin flag was identical to the Serbian triclolor until Djukanovic and co. took over. Then, they changed the proportions of the flag and the royal blue color became sky blue.

I am not in favor "Boze pravde". First it is a royalistic anthem and since Serbia will most likely stay a republican state, there is no reason to have a royalistic anthem with modified words to suit the present day situation. Second, the anthem is a prayer whereas throughout Serbian history God was very little on the Serbian side. No reason to pray Him to save us anymore. Third, I don't like the melody. I found the anthem "Oj Srbijo, mila mati" (it was used shortly during the Obrenovics and in Nedic's Serbia) much more pleasant song, more in the Serbian folk spirit, and lyrics more patriotic and down to earth.

I'd stick with the same colors of football uniforms for the sake of tradition. They also look nice. However, if the colors should be changed, my choice would be whole white kit - like 'beli orlovi'. An alternative could be whole red kit since the Serbian color is red.

[Andrix]

Pa, opis crnogorske plave kao "plavetne" je valjda negde iz 19. veka, ali kao da to ima ikakve veze sa bilo cim, to samo Crnogorci (tj. ,,Dukljani'') zabusavaju kako bi otezali proces i kako bi izmislili nekakvu razlicitost izmedju srbijanske i crnogorske zastave (iako je Crna Gora svoju zastavu uzela za takvu posle Srbije, tj. zato sto je to bas bila srpska zastava). Da, naravno da je postojala srpska crveno-belo-plava zastava (pre nego sto su Hrvati uzeli takvu zastavu!) i da je promenjena kao sto Ben kaze zato sto je bila previse "revolucionarna". Medjutim, to ne znaci da je to tradicionalna srpska zastava, jer, to je bila takodje novokomponovana zastava za srpsku knezevinu, i bila je zvanicna zastava samo par godina, dok su ova trobojka koristi vec duze od vek i po, pod tom su zastavom izvojevane najvece moderne srpske pobede, to je zastava koja je ukorenjena i poznata u narodu, i takva drzavna zastava treba da bude.

Sto se himne tice, ,,Boze pravde'' je sasvim logican izbor. Primedba da je to rojalisticka himna (jer, onda je, toboze i zastava ,,rojalisticka'' kao i grb) ne stoji, evo ja sam npr. 1990. u skoli ucio Boze pravde sa modifikovanim tekstom gde se ne spominje Kralj. Stvar melodije je subjektivna, ali po meni je sasvim dobra, podize duh (kada se izvodi kako treba, naravno), a i tekst je dobar, bas za himnu (ne za kafansku patriotsku hvalospevku). Takodje to je tradicionalna srpska himna, ako pitate prosecnog Srbina koja je njegova himna, on ce vam na nju pokazati.

[Ben Akiba]

Zastava nije rojalisticka nego narodna. Nije mogla da bude rojalisticka jer dinastija ni plemstvo nisu postojali. Grb isto tako, sve dok na njega nije stavljena Kruna; posto je Kralj Milan Obrenovic proglasio Srbiju kraljevinom i kruna je stavljena iznad grba. Smesno je da republika ima krunu iznad grba, zar ne.

Prosecni Srbin je sve do pocetka 90-ih pesmu "Hej Sloveni" smatrao svojom himnom, i pevao ju je u svakoj prilici kada ga je obuhvatalo nacionalno nadahnuce. Tu su pesmu takodje rado pevali i u Kraljevini Jugoslaviji. Doduse, neki Srbi su smatrali "Internacionalu" kao svoju himnu. Radio-Beograd je bila jedna od retkih stanica u komunistickom delu Evrope koja je otpocinjala i zavrsavala svoje dnevno emitovanje "Internacionalom". Vecina Srba tada nije ni znala o himni "Boze pravde", a oni koji jesu su ili o tome cutali ili su se iste gnusali. E onda je dosao Sloba Milosevic, i jednim dekretom vratio Boga i Pravdu medju Srbe, pa su se i preference promenile. Himne "Hej Sloveni" su se od tada Srbi gnusali, a od "Internacionale" su dobijali ospe cak i oni koji gotovo nikada nisu ni ziveli u komunizmu.

[Andrix]

Zastava je uvedena pod knezevinom (pre toga nije koriscena) - dakle, ne moze da bude narodna, jer su se medju narodom koristile drugacije zastave, a trobojka (i jedna i druga) uvedena je dekretom uz odobrenje Knjaza Milosa (ne mislim na kiselu vodu). Dakle, uveo ju je knez; dalje, grb, sa orlom i stitom na plecima (pre se koristio ili sam orao ili sama ocila, ili pak ocila na austrijskom ili ruskom crnom orlu, dakle, carski grb) uveden je posle 1882. godine (kada je proglasena kraljevina) tako da je taj grb (bez obzira na krunu) od Kralja Milana odobren.

Quote:

Smesno je da republika ima krunu iznad grba, zar ne.

Ne, niposto; i ako sam mislim da bi grb Republike Srbije trebalo biti orao na stitu bez krune i ogrtaca i ostalih stvari (previse su staromodne), kruna oznacava suverinitet drzave i ne predstavlja nuzno monarhiju. Gradovi, npr., imaju razne tipove kruna na svojim grbovima, gde ti razliciti tipovi predstavljaju velicinu grada i sl. A kruna je stajala iznad grba i pre Kralja Milana.

Quote:

E onda je dosao Sloba Milosevic, i jednim dekretom vratio Boga i Pravdu medju Srbe, pa su se i preference promenile. Himne "Hej Sloveni" su se od tada Srbi gnusali, a od "Internacionale" su dobijali ospe cak i oni koji gotovo nikada nisu ni ziveli u komunizmu.

Ovo zvuci kao replika jednog SKOJevca - Milosevic nije uvodio "boga i pravdu" medju Srbe nego je samo iskoristio talas sprskog nacionalizma koji je dolazio bez obzira na njega, a i podsecam da je taj isti Milosevic 8 godina drzao ime drzave "Jugoslavija" sa sve himnom "Hej Sloveni" (zvizdanje toj himni, koje licno mislim da je glupo, bilo je izraz antirezimskog osecanja tokom 90ih) i jugoslovenskom zastavom. Oni koji su pevali ,,boze pravde'' su i u isto vreme setali ulicama i demonstrirali protiv tog istog Milosevica. Sto se internacionale tice, dabodga se nikada vise ne cula na talasima Radio Beograda, i neka se jeze generacije...

[Ben Akiba]

Narodna zastava u smislu da nije zastava kuce, porodice, klana, dinastije. Mozda bi bolji termin umesto 'narodna' bio 'drzavna'.

Beli dvoglavi orao je mislim obelezje Nemanjica i izveden je od vizantijskog dvoglavog (crnog) orla. Stit sa cetiri ocila je isto tako vizantijskog porekla. Mislim da je bio obelezje prestonog grada Konstantinopolisa; ocila predstavljaju 4 stilizovana grcka slova 'beta' koja su akronim za nesto kao "Car, careva caruje vaseljenom" ("Basileos, Basileon,......."). Ovi simboli su preuzeti u XIX veku pri stvaranju moderne srpske drzave da bi oznacili kontinuitet sa srednjovekovnom srpskom drzavom.

Do dolaska Milosevica, srpski nacionalizam je bio jedan sarmantni egocentrizam koji je mogao da se uporedi na primer sa francuskim. Dolaskom Milosevica ovaj nacionalizam se krajnje vulgarizuje i postaje pokretacka snaga koje Srbe vodi u propast. U tom periodu sve sto je srpsko je do kraja obesmisljeno, zloupotrebljeno, kompromitovano i ukaljano da je gotovo izgubilo svaki smisao. Srpske Akademija, Univerzitet i Crkva su korscene u sluzbu dnevne politike i nacionalne histerije, kosovski junaci su lepljeni na kalendare i soljice za kafu, srpski heroji su postajali zastitni znak momaka iz podzemlja, a pod Misicevom sapkom su bivsi Titovi oficiri vrsili nedela kojih ce se generacije Srba stideti mnogo vise nego "Internacionale".

Kad pomenusmo "Internacionalu", Srbi su uvek flertovali sa populistickim ideologijama koje su se zalagale za nekakvu narodnu pravdu. Pre komunista tu su bili, na primer, Pasicevi radikali; Srbi su se masovno priklanjali Radikalim mada su tada postojale gradjanske stranke (Liberala, Naprednjaka) u kojima su bili vodeci srpski politicari, drzavnici i intelektualci (Garasanin, Grujic, Ristic, Djordjevic). Medjutim, ove stranke nisu flertovale sa narodom, nisu mu podilzaile, nisu ga pozivale na pobunu, nego su vodile real-politiku od koje je Srbija uglavnom imala koristi na sta ukazuje progres ostvaren u doba Obrenovica.

Srbi ce biti skloni da u politici prihvataju populisticke, nacinal-socijalne, buntovnicke pokrete dogod se budu ponasali kao narod/pleme a ne kao javno mnjenje. Kada se prosecan Srbin bude osecao pre svega kao gradjanin drzave u kojoj zivi i kada bude smatrao da njegova etnicka i verska pripadnost nisu javna vec privatna stvar, onda ce Srbija konacno postati gradjanska drzava u kojoj populisticke i buntovnicke ideologije nece moci da uhvate korena. Do tada cemo pevati i "Internacionalu", i "Boze Pravde" i "Mars na Drinu" (nema razlike u sustini samo u formi) u svakoj politickoj, socijalnoj, sportskoj i drugoj javnoj manifestaciji jer ih dozivljavamo kao narodni i plemenski ritual.

[monte]

what a discussion

the anthem, almost everyone is in favour of Boze Pravde and as Andrija said most Serbs see it as the only real atnhem... it may be slightly royalist but as stated, that part could be left out or Serbia should become a kingdom again I don't think the melody is the best ever though. Either way, I disagree with the argument that God has always been against Serbs, even though I am not religious, the essence of God is that He loves all human beings equally

The lyrics of another option mentioned, Oj Srbijo, mila mati, are quite nice:

O, Srbijo, mila mati!
Uvek cu te tako zvati.
Mila zemljo, mili dome,
Na krilu cu svagda tvome
Sreæno živit' k'o u raju,
Gde miline vecno traju.
U tebi je ono sve.
Za cim srce moje mre.


but if last time it was used was Nedic's era, then I feel certain grudges against it.

Drulo just because my nick gives reason to, you don't have to worry or anything that I am on that radical monte side as far as I'm concerned CG is Serbian. Like Ben said one time, CG is Serbian Sparta

[Borba]

BORING!....

FLAG = serbian tricolor with a big question mark in the middle

ANTHEM =

I come from Alabama with my banjo on my knee
I'm going to Louisiana, my true love for to see
It rained all night the day I left
The weather it was dry
The sun so hot, I froze to death
Susanna, don't you cry

Oh, Susanna, oh don't you cry for me
For I come from Alabama with my banjo on my knee

I had a dream the other night when everything was still
I thought I saw Susanna a-coming down the hill
The buckwheat cake was in her mouth
The tear was in her eye
Says I, I'm coming from the south
Susanna, don't you cry

[Andrix]

Quote:

or Serbia should become a kingdom again I don't think the melody is the best ever though. Either way, I disagree with the argument that God has always been against Serbs,

Right. Technically speaking, King Petar I was acclaimed by an elected assembly in 1903. The monarchy was abolished in 1945 by an communist assembly after "elections" during which everyone who voted against the commies disappeared and was never seen again...as for God, well, look at our string of victories 1817 - 1918, it's our own fault we screwed up on Dec. 1st, 1918.

As for anthems, perhaps Montenegro should adopt Bajaga's famous song of the same title, while Serbia could Inspektor Blaza's ,,Srbijo, Srbijo, suzu sam pustio''

Ben, as for coats of arms, your are partly correct about their origins, but my point is, since Serbia was, whenever it existed as an independent state, from the 7th century to 1945 a monarchy, than all these symbols can be taken as "royalist".

Za ostalo sto si rekao, nije da se ne slazem, naprotiv, no, ne mislim da tradicionalna srpska obelezija treba asocirati samo sa Milosevicem i "turbofolk" eksplozijom ranih 90ih i izbegavati ih zbog toga.

[Ben Akiba]

True, majority of Serbs favor "Boze pravde" as the Serbian anthem, but there is a considerable fraction of Serbs who does not. Many of these Serbs are silent since they may be perceived as anti-Serbian if they do not a priori accept "Boze Pravde".

My statement that God was anti-Serbian was said in jest since the recent history has been in discord with the Serbian idea of how it should be. Nevertheless, the essence of God is omnipotent, everpresent, and absolute. The human aspect of God that Monte mentioned is the way how Christians tend to percieve God; God of love and mercy. Other denominations do not necessarily award God with those attributes. For example, Jewish God is very revangeful even when it comes to his "Favorite People". For example, he prevented Moses to ever see Hanaan, the "Land of Milk and Honey" as a punishment for worshiping Golden Calf, although Moses himself never worshiped the idol but his felow Jews did it.

I agree on Montenegro; it is a significant part of Serbian heritage. If Montenegro bcomes a separate nation whose ethnicity would be disassociated with its Serbian roots, it would be a svere loss for Serbian culture and heritage. Future generations of Serbs who would miss Njegos, Miljanov and other pilars of Serbian culture that came from Montenegro would have very different preception upon our past and our place in the history and civilization of the Balkans.

[Ben Akiba]

Andrija,

Petar I Karadjordjevic je postao kralj aklamacijom, ali je on seo na krvavi presto na koji ga je dovela vojna hunta crnorukaskih kraljeubica. U novijoj srpskoj istoriji nije se odigrao gnusniji zlocin od ubistva Kralja Aleksandra Obrenovica i Kraljice Drage. Ne samo sto su mucki ubijeni od svojih oficira u spavacoj sobi beogradskog dvora, nego su posle toga na najbestijalniji nacin izmasakrirani i kroz dvorski prozor baceni na ulicu. Kralju je otsecen k***c a kraljici grudi (!!!). Lesvi ubijenih i unakazenih kralja i kraljice lezali su ispred dvora citav dan na radost razuzdane svetine koja je likovala i rugala se mrtvim telima. Zbog ovog gnusnog zlocina, vecina evropskih drzava prekinula je diplomatske odnose sa Srbijom na vise godina. Od tog trenutka, Srbe progoni imidz divljaka, nepostovaoca zakona i kraljeubica koji se posle svakog znacajnog istorijskog dogadjaja samo jos vise pojacavao. Petar I, od koga je Evropa zahtevala da kazni zlocince i pocinioce ubistva, umesto kaznjavanja postavio je vodju vojne hunte, pukovnika Apisa, za sefa srpske obavestajne sluzbe. To umalo nije kostalo prestola i glave njegovog sina, Aleksandra Karadjordjevica. Jer Apis je bio revolucionar, republikanac, covek koji se nije drzao zakona sem onih koje sam u datom trenutku propisuje. Srecom, Aleksandra ga je preduhitrio i zlikovca je stigla zasluzena kazna u Solunskom procesu.

Prema tome, srpski presto je okrvavljen i oskrnavljen davno pre nego sto su komunisti oduzeli pravo Petru II Karadjordjevicu da bude srpski i jugoslovenski suveren. Komunisti su na neki nacin potvrdili ono sto su svojeveremeno ucinili Crnorukci i sto je Petar I uz pomocu srpske Skupstine ozakonio.

[Andrix]

Za ubistvo Kralja Aleksandra i Kraljice Drage znam, ne moras mi o tome pricati, medjutim takodje je cinjenica da je Aleksandar Obrenovic bio omrazeni tiranin, da menjao ustave i zakone kako mu se htelo, dok je pod Kraljom Petrom I postojala u Srbiji demokratija kakve posle toga maltene nije bilo sve do 5. oktobra 2000. godine, i da se njegova vladavina (1903.-1914.) s pravom naziva zlatnim dobom moderne Srbije. Za ubistvo kralja su nam duboko u tom periodu zamerili Nemci, Britanci i Austrijanci (pod Obrenovicima je Srbija maltene bila Hapsburski satelit) dok Francuzi manje (oni su svom kralju, podsecam, odsekli glavu) mada je herojsko nosenje srpske vojske u I svetskom ratu kod zapadnih saveznika izbrisalo taj negativni imidz.


Ah. Toliko o tome, skrenuli smo sa teme skroz.

[Andrix]

Anyways, back to the topic, it being the national shirts, I agree with Borba in that the current ones won't change as they are new as of last year. However, I hope that they don't decide to come up with some new stupid jersey afterwards, I especially don't want our boys wearing red shirts (eeeew). If you guys remember the volleyball kits from a few years ago, they were red with some sort of weird white pattern on them, and I don't want to watch our team with those on running on the field...

[monte]

Quote:

Originally posted by Borba
BORING!....

FLAG = serbian tricolor with a big question mark in the middle

ANTHEM =

I come from Alabama with my banjo on my knee
I'm going to Louisiana, my true love for to see
It rained all night the day I left
The weather it was dry
The sun so hot, I froze to death
Susanna, don't you cry

Oh, Susanna, oh don't you cry for me
For I come from Alabama with my banjo on my knee

I had a dream the other night when everything was still
I thought I saw Susanna a-coming down the hill
The buckwheat cake was in her mouth
The tear was in her eye
Says I, I'm coming from the south
Susanna, don't you cry

thanks, I'm sure this song will be in my head for at least the next 24h.

[Borba]

Quote:

thanks, I'm sure this song will be in my head for at least the next 24h.

Happy to be of service .