Pelé names 100 players of all time.

Germany
Ballack
Beckenbauer
Breitner
Kahn
Klinsmann
Sepp Maier
Matthäus
Gerd Muller
Rummenigge

Argentina
Batistuta
Crespo
Kempes
Maradona
Passarella
Saviola
Sivoria
Verona
Zanetti
Di Stefano

Belgium
Ceulemans
Pfaff
Van Der Elst

Brasil
Carlos Alberto Torres
Cafu
Roberto Carlos
Djalma Santos
Falcão
Júnior
Pelé
Rivaldo
Romário
Ronaldinho
Ronaldo
Sócrates
Zico

Bulgaria
Stoichkov

Cameroon
Milla

Chile
Figueroa
Zamorano

Colombia
Valderrama

South Korea
Hong

Croatia
Suker

Denmark
Brian Laudrup
Michael Laudrup
Schmeichel

Spain
Butragueño
Luis Enrique
Raúl

US
Michelle Akers
Mia Hamm

France
Cantona
Desailly
Deschamps
Fontaine
Henry
Kopa
Papin
Pires
Platini
Thuram
Tresor
Trezeguet
Vieira
Zidane

Gana
Abedi Pelé

Holland
Bergkamp
Cruijff
Davids
Gullit
Kluivert
Neeskens
Rensenbrink
Rijkaard
Seedorf
René Van der Kerkhof
Willi van der Kerkhof
Van Nistelrooy

Hungr
Puskas

England
Banks
Beckham
Charlton
Keegan
Lineker
Owen
Shearer

Ireland
Keane

North Ireland
George Best

Italy
Nesta
Rivera
Paolo Rossi
Totti
Vieri
Zoff
Roberto Baggio
Baresi
Bergomi
Boniperti
Buffon
Del Piero
Facchetti
Maldini

Japan
Nakata

Liberia
Weah

México
Hugo Sánchez

Nigéria
Okocha

Paraguai
Romerito

Peru
Cubijjas

Poland
Boniek

Portugal
Eusebio
Figo
Rui Costa

Romania
Hagi

Scotland
Dal Glish

Czech Republic
Masopust
Nedved

Russia
Dassaiev

Senegal
Diouf

Ukraine
Shevchenko

Uruguai
Francescoli

Turkey
Belozoglu
Recber



What a bad list!! First of all the biggest mistake, no Garrincha, oh my God. So this means Saviola is better than Garrincha. No Nilton Santos, Gerson, Rivellino , Tostão , Marco Van Basten. And not being biased, any list of top 100 players should have more brazilians, this list has more italians and french than brazilians, hey we won 5 wcs because we had the best players.

I will comment some names in this list.
Ballack (No way. Good players but not among the freaking 100 ever)
Crespo (Failed to impress in almost every team he played)
Saviola ( His name in this list is a sad joke. In the future he can be a great player, but he isn't word class now)
Ceulemans,faffVan and Van der Elst ( never heard about them, can't jugde them)
Ronaldinho (he will be in this list in the future, but now he is too young)
Zamorano ( I don't think he belongs in that list, there were a lot of strikers better than Him)
Luis Henrique (He is a good player, nothing more than that)
Trezeguet (Another joke)
Abedi Pelé ( who is this guy?)
Owen (no way , same is saviola)
Shearer (same is Zamorano)
Keane ( Are we talking about the 100 most crazy players ever?)
Nesta ( can be in the future)
Totti ( can be in the future)
Del Piero (will never be considered one of the 100)
Nakata ( he just wanted to put a japanese guy)
Dal Glish Belozoglu and Recber (never heard about them)

Conclusion: The best player ever (Pele) proves once again that he is not very good when he talks about football. And He commited a crime when he left Garrincha out. The guy the with him ofrmed the best duo ever (60 games togheter,never lost a game for Brazil). BTW Any list should only include players who have already finished their careers, so you can make a fair judgement analising their whole carres.

BTW it was a fifa request and it will be announced Thursday in the party that will deliver the prize "Fifa Hundred" in the Natural history museum in London.

Of course, that list is a pile of steaming crap. No question there. Not only due to the absent giants, but also due to some of the names we see in the list. Michelle Akers?!? Saviola?? Come ON now...

Originally posted by brasileiro
BTW Any list should only include players who have already finished their careers, so you can make a fair judgement analising their whole carres.

I'm not so sure. I think it's perfectly reasonable to include Zidane and Ronaldo in the top 100, for instance.

I think Ronaldo and Zidane are in a different situation, because for me they are clear the best players of their generation.

I completely agree with U
Garrincha was the first name I was missing too.
Making a list like this is s delicate matter that shouldn´t be dealt with such ignorance.
I just get tired of it all.

I looked at the list again and it looks even worse. Roger Milla?!? Milla was a freakin' RESERVE for Cameroon in 1990, fer chrissakes!! He came in, scored a couple of goals and now he's in the all-time TOP 100???? Why not throw in Oleg Salenko too? :wallbang:

And look at the list of dutch players. KLUIVERT AND DAVIDS ARE THERE, BUT VAN BASTEN ISN'T. Seriousy... is Pele senile?? :stress:

Oh I missed Kluivert in there, another joke too. I think age has caught up with Pele heheheh.

Oh my god and what about Hong and Diouf. Sad list

Seedorf , Zamorano , Luis Henrique , Trezeguet . Three beligum guys I´ve never heard of .
No Garrincha , Tostão , Rivelino , Gerson .
Let´s just ignore this thing , shall we ?

No Garrincha, no Nilton Santos, No Sandor Kocsis, no Sotil, no Chumpitaz, no Andrade from Uruguay?

no LEV YASHIN? no Bobby Moore? no Gerson, no Jairzinho, no tostao, and no RIVELINO WOW

beckham made the list, so did Saviola, and Crespo!

Is this really the list?



O Rei Pele, I'm sorry but Dagoods could have come up with a better 100...

As great a player as Pele was, I am afraid he doesn't know his limitations on talking about the subject. Asking Pele to comment on football is like asking Maradona for drug-rehab tips...

"Asking Pele to comment on football is like asking Maradona for drug-rehab tips..."

:howler:

BTW The list has 120 players. It is the list a saw at Folha de São Paulo (brazilian newspaper) and tv band.
the link, in portuguese http://esportes.terra.com.br/interna/0,,OI274809-EI2261,00.html

This comercially driven list are always a joke. I pay no attention to this stuff.

Originally posted by Dagoods

O Rei Pele, I'm sorry but Dagoods could have come up with a better 100...

What are you waiting for Milk?? :) List the top 100 and no quota system. Simply list the top 100 ;)

what what? if in that list there is Del Piero, Ballack ,Belozoglu,
Recber, Nakata,.....

he could pick also Mostovoi :groan: :groan: and Karpin!:groan: :groan:

It was a crime to leave out Garrincha. And where are van Basten, Hierro, Raul, Redondo, Nordahl, and so forth?

What are you waiting for Milk?? List the top 100 and no quota system. Simply list the top 100


Dagoods will, very soon!!!

Don't be so harsh on Pele, people. OK, some choices are really ridiculous (Mia Hamm???? :wth: ). But try to compile a list of best 100 players of all time yourself, and you will see that you will miss some big names.

Obviously there are a lot of players missing and a lot of players there that shouldn't be, but...

I think he tried to pick players for what they have done for their own countries football..;)

if so... he's also missed out Hakan Sukur..

I know Hakan Sukur isn't the best of players.. but he was the biggest reason why Turkish football has evolved a lot..

Originally posted by Ivan Palmer
Seedorf , Zamorano , Luis Henrique , Trezeguet . Three beligum guys I´ve never heard of .


Those three Belgium guys were part of the great Belgium generation which got to the final of Euro 1980 (lost to Germany) and kicked Argentina's a$$ (world champions at that time) in the opening game of 1982 WC. However, I don't know if this is enough to get all three into the top 100 list. ;)

My 116 players of all time:

france
zidane
Platini
Kopa
Fontaine
henry
Desailly
Thuram
Eric Cantona


germany
beckenbauer
matthaus
rummenigge
gerd muller
sepp maier
FRITZ WALTER
Paul Breitner
Klinsman
kanh
voller

Argentina
Maradona
Kempes
Di Stefano
Batistuta
Passarela
SÍVORI
Fillol
Oscar Ruggeri
Ardiles
redondo
José Manuel Moreno

Brasil
Roberto Carlos
Nilton Santos
Djalma Santos
Domingos da Guia
Carlos Alberto Torres
Leandro
Cafu
Dunga
Falcão
Didi
Junior
Gerson
Rivelino
Zizinho
Pelé
Garrincha
Ronaldo
Romário
Rivaldo
Zico
Jairzinho
Careca
Zito
Socrates
Tostão
Gilmar
Leonidas

Bulgaria
Stoichkov

Chile
Figueroa

Denmark
Michael Laudrup
Schmeichel

Spain
Raul
Butragueno
Hierro
Gento

Holland
Bergkamp
Cruijff
Gullit
Rijkaard
Marco VAN BASTEN
neeskens
koeman

Hungary
Sandor Kocsis
Puskas
KUBALA

England
Banks
Charlton
Lineker
Sir Stanley MATTHEWS
Bobby MOORE
Geoff HURST
Kevin KEEGAN
David Beckham

North Ireland
George Best

Italy
Zoff
Roberto Baggio
Baresi
Bergomi
Maldini
RIVERA
meazza
FACCHETTI
Scirea
MAZZOLA
Riva
Paolo ROSSI
Luis Monti

Liberia
Weah

México
Hugo Sánchez

Paraguai
Romerito

Peru
Cubijjas
Chumpitaz
Sotil

Poland
Boniek
Lato

Portugal
Eusebio
Figo
COLUNA

Romania
Hagi

Czech Republic
Masopust
Nedved

Russia
Yashin

Ukraine
Shevchenko

Uruguai
Francescoli
Andrade
VARELA
SCHIAFFINO
Scarone

David Bechkam probably isnt even in the top 200 of all time let alone 100

Originally posted by AS_Roma83
David Bechkam probably isnt even in the top 200 of all time let alone 100

I agree.

there has got to be 200 brazilian players alone that are better ...well close to it

I agree with you, i don't think Beckham is that great too. Just name someone to replace him, I'll pick Totti instead. And name four more to complete 120, please

I think my list has some mistakes but is better than the one Pele made.;)

Since I put some players that are playing now, I will add Ronaldinho. so that's 117.

this brazilian obviously chose in term of popularity.

Originally posted by Ivan Helguera
this brazilian obviously chose in term of popularity.

you talking about Pele? No, he chose because he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about most of the time. :(

For once, the list is about Alive Players, so No Garrincha...
third this is a made up list for FIFA to make all FIFA a rest, not even an prentense final word (Pele never did said it was) and quite frankly...
People like to bash Pele, Like ESPN who found ridiculous the list and made a pool of the missing brazilian...And Nilton Santos is losing and there is Bebeto there...ah, Everyone is ridiculous, My list would have Reinaldo and I sure a lot of people would say "huh?"

what a terrible list...some players he mentioned do not deserve to be named 100 players of all time...is this pele not the one we know??? a comedian??

Fifa announced the list today the only difference forum the list the brazilian newspaper announced was the presence of Rivellino Van Baten Seeler and Kenny Dalglish.

and Nilton Santos too

calm down guys.

it's just pele's opinion no need to go ballistic about it.

not every football fan think the same way and everyone could come up with a different best 100 list.

i would also like to remind you that the list is of the best LIVING football players.

Several countries do not even have their best players, some countries are missing while others are there for what reason?

But it is not like I expected anything less from Pele. :D

A dead Alessandro Costacurta is better than an alive & kicking Hong Myung Bo.

Unfortunately, Pele's football knowledge is the total opposite of his playing skill.

Originally posted by Tim
As great a player as Pele was, I am afraid he doesn't know his limitations on talking about the subject. Asking Pele to comment on football is like asking Maradona for drug-rehab tips...
Actually Pele knows about football as much as he knows about birth control.

Isn't this list for living people only which is why garrincha is not on the list.
also i think aimar deserves to be on that list,valencia wouldn't be where they are without him.

It is a let's say comerciall list, he pick guys from every period, is not something to take seriously, in fact perhaps he personally admire more southamericans than those in the list two not big, giant names: Garrincha and his equal argie twin El Loco Corbatta, the last one Pele used it to understimate Garrincha, he always was jealous of him. Something really funny is the inclusion of Ruggeri from Brasilero, man he ain't worthy to be in the top ten argie, the only reason is that he was really a winner and a good player, mostly mentally, ahead him Perfumo for instance former Pele's teammate.

Lets repeat, Pele had to pick living players from a previous selection from FIFA and half of it had to be of active players.
You people picking too much for Pele...
Worse than This only Gerson's whinning...He would suffer a bit to be in 100 brazilians list, talk about world wide.

from a British point of view,to put Owen and Beckham above Denis Law and Jimmy Greaves really is sacrilege of the highest order :(

and to think both these players were part of Pele's era. :confused:

It's a bad list, personaly I think it's wrong to even start making shuch lists as you will never came out with an objective one. Pele is probably really the greatest of all times but shuch actions make him look somewhat strange to say the least.:thumbdwn:

Well, for people who don't know the belgians in the list:
Pfaff was about the best keeper in the world during most of the eighties, certainly better than Dasajev at that time.
Ceulemans: No need to explain, if you've seen the world cups from 1982 till 1990 you know him
Van der Elst: Can't see why he's in that list actually, players like Van Himst, Scifo, Gerets were a lot better...
but well, thoughts like that seem to be the general opion about this list:)

Originally posted by brasileiro
Since I put some players that are playing now, I will add Ronaldinho. so that's 117.

What about Rob Rensenbrig ?

Originally posted by JCamilo
Worse than This only Gerson's whinning...He would suffer a bit to be in 100 brazilians list, talk about world wide.

WHAT? :eekani: You're kidding... right? :confused:

When did van Basten die?

Pele's list of the 100 Greatest Living Footballers was received with a heavy amount of criticism, but not from all sides. Nilton Santos, the Encyclopedia of Football – the greatest leftback of all time, WC 58/62 champion, the man who created the position of the attacking fullback – responded as a gentleman when asked about his absence from Pele's list:
– It has been so long since we've played together, and Pele was so young (Pele was 17 in WC 58, and celebrated the triumph by crying on Nilton's shoulder), that he probably has forgotten me. It was his mistake, it's allright, I don't need any favours.

Not everybody reacted so gracefully. Gerson, the Golden Leftie, the brilliant maestro of Brazil's 1970 NT, ripped apart the list on national television and attacked Pele:
– What about the players who carried Pele on their backs, like Rivellino, Zito, Coutinho and myself?

The list is, indeed, full of injustices and "political" choices. The 1970 Brazilian team, elected by FIFA as the best NT of all time, only had THREE players: Pele himself, Carlos Alberto Torres and Rivellino (added at the last minute to avoid bigger embarassment). Meanwhile, the 1998 France NT had a whopping EIGHT (!!) players chosen – so Trezeguet and Deschamps are on the list, but Gerson and Tostao aren't! :googly:

Being World Champion apparently means very little for FIFA. After all, France, with only one WC trophy, is the second nation with most players, tied with 3-times-World-Champs Italy (14), and with more players than 3-time-World-Champs Germany (10) and twice-World-Champs Argentina (10)!! :stress:

Twice World Champions, Uruguay has only ONE player, Enzo Francescoli, being side-by-side with Liberia, a nation that never played a World Cup. A detail: not even in Uruguay is Francescoli rated higher than the great Pedro Rocha, another notorious absence in Pele's list. :rollani:

Van Basten, another name included at the last minute (probably without even consulting Pele) to avoid bigger embarassment, would have been the only player to be elected FIFA player of the year (in 1992) left out of the list. According to reports, Van Basten was initially excluded from the list because he refused to do promotional photos for FIFA. :yuck:

I think you are being too harsh on Pele. It is his opinion, not yours. It's a good list as well, although I am sure removing what most people would consider the worst 10, and putting in 10 legends would make it more tolerable list. Personally I was most surprised not to see Garrincha on the list, he is clearly the best football player on Xtratime, I mean one of the best through time, and also a very close ally of Pele in their footballing days.

Another problem is time and gender. Does football players that ruled their national leagues or even the World Cup in the 30s and 40s deserve to be here, when their teams clearly would have been dismantled by a team of the modern footballing greats. Does women belong on the list? I am a big fan of women's football, and I will fight for their rights in almost any discussion. But do they belong on a list like this? I don't think so. They play their own game, just like the youth teams and the old boys teams do. If not you might as well include the greatest 13 year olds ever, even if they became awful at 16. Or you could include a 55 year old, that was a complete nobody at 30, but now dribbles an old Platini in a phone booth if he has to.

It is easy to see why Brazilians would be upset, but are we not all allowed to have different opinions on football, and on who is a great player, and would not Pele have the same rights if he came to post on Xtratime, or if he made a list for FIFA about the best players ever?

the greatest leftback of all time

With all due respect Garrincha, but Pele did not forget to include the greatest leftback of all-time...PAOLO MALDINI'S Name did make the list!
;)

http://www.aftonbladet.se/sport/0309/09/SPORT-09s67maldiniFRINY.jpg

:D :D :D

Dagoods was real suprise not to see Nilton Santos name on the list!!! The man deserves to be on the list for sure!

Forza Nilton Santos!!!

In resume ... Edson Arantes do Nacimento is a mental retard.


As Romario said in the past: "God blessed Pele's feet so it could keep it's mouth shut".;) :o

Dagoods, spare us. ;) Maldini is great, but he's number two.

Maldini is great, but he's number two.

:tongue: :tongue: :tongue:

Jcamilo,

Gerson is arguably the best "lancador" taht the world has ever seen..... only Didi can argue with him. PERIOD.
And Pele not put the guys name down, just shows what a pricck he is:o

The guy even put the water boy Deschamps on the list.... how sad can you get??:confused: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck:

If you don't consider the time difference, or how dominating a player was at one time, but only how good they actually were regardless of time, do you think Garrincha would have been able to get into one of today's top teams? I have looked at videos from old World Cups, and I think the level of football has improved greatly over the years.

Originally posted by Garrincha
Dagoods, spare us. ;) Maldini is great, but he's number two.

if that Garrincha...... be more like number 4 or 5 in my list

Originally posted by Orange
If you don't consider the time difference, or how dominating a player was at one time, but only how good they actually were regardless of time, do you think Garrincha would have been able to get into one of today's top teams? I have looked at videos from old World Cups, and I think the level of football has improved greatly over the years.

This kind of questioning is meaningless, because you can't compare today's football with football that was played 40 years ago - there is a difference in physical preparation, equipment, technique, basically everything has changed. Garrincha was the best of his generation (except for Pele), so at that particular time, he could play in any team of the world. Would he be born later, he would be introduced to a different kind of football, different kind of physical preparation and training and all and with his amazing talent I don't see the reason why he couldn't develop into a world star.

But of course, hypothetically speaking, take any player of that era just as he was at that time and put him into the today top teams, it wouldn't work. At least not from the beginning, until the player adapted to these new standards. But this is all speculation as well, proving again, that there is no way to answer your question.

I will agree that it is impossible, but not meaningless. To me at least it matters a lot when thinking about the best football players of all time. Would he have been good now? If the answer is no, I think it is difficult to consider that player the best ever. I am sure that Maradona at his best would have been a star now, and that Romario in 1994 would have dominated with his goals now as well as then.

Originally posted by Orange
I will agree that it is impossible, but not meaningless. To me at least it matters a lot when thinking about the best football players of all time. Would he have been good now? If the answer is no, I think it is difficult to consider that player the best ever. I am sure that Maradona at his best would have been a star now, and that Romario in 1994 would have dominated with his goals now as well as then.

Yes, but they have stopped playing top football only recently (well, Romario actually still plays it) and the difference from today's football are not even close to the difference between today's football and football from 1962. But if you really insist - yes, I think Garrincha would be the best player today. :cool:

Originally posted by Garrincha
Dagoods, spare us. ;) Maldini is great, but he's number two.
Of course, Giacinto Facchetti is number 1. :cool:

Originally posted by Ze da Fiel

The guy even put the water boy Deschamps on the list.... how sad can you get??:confused: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck: :yuck:

are talking about the captain of the french squad 98?
the squad which beat brazil in final by a 3.0?
you have a short memory!
this guy played for the most famous teams in europe and is the french player the most titled.

Originally posted by mali
are talking about the captain of the french squad 98?
the squad which beat brazil in final by a 3.0?
you have a short memory!
this guy played for the most famous teams in europe and is the french player the most titled. Talk about short memories, wasn't the score 2-0?

Originally posted by mali
are talking about the captain of the french squad 98?
the squad which beat brazil in final by a 3.0?
you have a short memory!
this guy played for the most famous teams in europe and is the french player the most titled.

riiight, hwoever he is still nowhere near the top 100...

Gerson is arguably the best "lancador" taht the world has ever seen..... only Didi can argue with him. PERIOD.

I agree, he have one of the best long balls ever. That is all. I am not joking about him, the only great stuff about him is his long ball. This is too few. He was not better than Ademir Da Guia for example (one that was left behind because played in the same position but under other game style).

The guy even put the water boy Deschamps on the list.... how sad can you get??

In a matter of opinion ? Derchmaps was a good player that won the Champions league twice, one world cup and One EURO. This is not a bad player. I would not pick him, but when someone list him I wont mind either.

Orange:

If you don't consider the time difference, or how dominating a player was at one time, but only how good they actually were regardless of time, do you think Garrincha would have been able to get into one of today's top teams?

Garrincha could be in this list because he is dead, however the only reason to not allow him play was his physical problem - even before knowing his quality he would be cut. But other than that...He is a thousand times better than Overmass, Denilson, Claudio Lopez, Joaquim, Giggs just to name some dribbling, fast players. However Garrincha would be a different player - with same quality - but adapted to today's needs.

I am sure that Maradona at his best would have been a star now, and that Romario in 1994 would have dominated with his goals now as well as then.

Garrincha could dribble as good as Maradona, have a great passing, could do it with both legs, good kicking also. A lot of speed. If those two could be there, so could Garrincha.

By the way, I am not joking about Gerson having a hard time to get in 100 best brazilians list but that is irrelevant - People are complaning about todays players when He had to pick 50 players, It is a meaningless list for FIFA for a party that had to take account all the world and mainly, If we do 100 list i bet we are always going to pick each other choices.

Nilton Showed his greatness, but another great name left behind (that did not carried Pele in his backs unlike jelous and one that talk too much Gerson said) Zito resume the importance of it:

"He did not put me in his list but he is the first in my list".
Nilton and Zito, great Champions!!!!!!!!!

Where are the "European Brazillians"?? FFS, Savicevic, Stojkovic, Dzajic, even Jugovic along with Boban and Prosinecki.

Originally posted by Pila
Talk about short memories, wasn't the score 2-0?

it was 3-0...


I admit a lot of Brazilians are missing but you Brazilians are a bit too biased... You don't give European football enough credit... Although I do think a lot of Brazilians are missing and some Europeans are missing. There are also stupid choices in the list.


Yeah Brazil is the best nation for football.. but there a lot of strong European nations too... Italy (3) , France (1) (probably the strongest European country at the moment), West Germany at the time (3).

As a Turk, I don't mind which Turks are in the list as long as Hakan Sukur is in it. He is the player with the biggest part for Turkey's improvement. Before Euro 2000 he was the only Turk that was respected in England and the rest of Europe. Now there are players like Hasan Sas, Rustu Recber, Emre Belozoglu, Yildiray Basturk who had a great WC2002 but I don't think that's enough for this list although they are now known world-wide. ;)

Well, we would expect more Brazilian cause A) Pele is brazilian B) We are the best football nation on Earth and C) Pele played in Brazil for most of his life... so I'd guess he played against Brazilians the msot.
And I don't mean to sound biased, but there were a lot of players missing who were better than Sukkur.
But as it was already pointed out, this list was pre-made by FIFA, I doubt Pele follows football that much to know who some those players are....

Originally posted by Pila
Talk about short memories, wasn't the score 2-0?

depends...
if your source was sport fox news, maybe... (never know with an anti-french channel:D)
or if you were a pro-brazil you stopped to watch the match when the score was 2.0.
for the others, the score has been 3.0

Originally posted by end3r7
Well, we would expect more Brazilian cause A) Pele is brazilian B) We are the best football nation on Earth and C) Pele played in Brazil for most of his life... so I'd guess he played against Brazilians the msot.
And I don't mean to sound biased, but there were a lot of players missing who were better than Sukkur.
But as it was already pointed out, this list was pre-made by FIFA, I doubt Pele follows football that much to know who some those players are....

you also have to look at what each player has done for their countries football...

Before Euro 96 the last time Turkey had participated in a finals tournament was in 1954... ;)

Hakan Sukur's goals lead Turkey to Euro 96, 2000 and World Cup 2002...

His goals also lead Galatsaray to the UEFA Cup win in 2000... ;)

Before Euro 96, Turkey were the whipping boys of Europe.. but now we are respected all over the world..

A lot of the big clubs follow Turkish players closely.. Turkey's U21 team were unbeaten for 2 years... ;) We only lost 1 game since 2002 and that as enough to eliminate us... That goal came in the 93rd minute against Germany... :rollani:

get my drift... ;)

I'm not saying Hakan Sukur is a top 100 player of all time, but he should be there just because of the huge role he played in Turkeys success in the past 10 years..

Hasan Sas could also be a candidate because he was chosen best left winger of the World Cup 2002 competition.. but this is probably not enough for the list but Hakan Sukur should definately be there... :)

I don't know if you guys agree but everyone is entitled to their own opinions... and I respect everyones opinions too... :)

Originally posted by BAFLI
I don't know if you guys agree but everyone is entitled to their own opinions... and I respect everyones opinions too... :)

:thumbsup: That's the spirit, I agree completely. And the truth is, if any one of us made a similar list there would inevitably be complaints and criticism from people with different opinions. Hell, I bet there are Korean fans who agree completely with the inclusion of Hong. :rolleyes:

Pele's biggest mistake, IMHO, is to allow politics to influence his choices. And if it's true that some of the names (like Nilton Santos and Van Basten) were added by FIFA and not by Pele, he should have excused himself from any responsibility regarding the selection.

Originally posted by Pila
Talk about short memories, wasn't the score 2-0?

No, it was indeed 3-0.

27' Zidane (1-0)
45' Zidane (2-0)
90' Petit (3-0)

Originally posted by BAFLI
you also have to look at what each player has done for their countries football...


Man, even Simmon Dontrememberhisname did a lot for his country Liechtenstain national football team. Before him, Liechtenstain were losing games by 10:0, now they are only losing 4:0. He should be on that list too. :wallbang:

Yes, Hakan Sukur did a lot for your national football team. But so did Zahovic for my Slovenia, but I still don't think he is anywhere near top 100. IMHO, with all the respect, Sukur is not top 100 of all time, no way.


Originally posted by Dusan_UK
Where are the "European Brazillians"?? FFS, Savicevic, Stojkovic, Dzajic, even Jugovic along with Boban and Prosinecki.


Boban and Savicevic could be considered maybe, but others - I don't think so.

mali,

perhaps we can add to the list the geniality of Guivarch, who was also a world champion in 1998;) He would fit in like a glove in the pathetic list of Pele.

Jcamilo,

gerson makes EASILY the top 20 of any brazilian list.... if you can't see him in the top 100, you should probably revise your knowledge about him, cause it is clearly way off

Originally posted by JCamilo
Orange:
Garrincha couldn't be in this list because he is dead.

That makes sense, I am sure he would have been in it if he was still alive.

Originally posted by Dusan_UK
Where are the "European Brazillians"?? FFS, Savicevic, Stojkovic, Dzajic, even Jugovic along with Boban and Prosinecki.

Originally posted by Bafli
As a Turk, I don't mind which Turks are in the list as long as Hakan Sukur is in it.

Originally posted by end3r7
Well, we would expect more Brazilian cause A) Pele is brazilian B) We are the best football nation on Earth

This proves it, it is absolutely impossible to please many people with such a list. Everyone wants their guy included. From Scandinavia/The Nordic there was only three players and all of them from Denmark. No Norwegians, no Swedes, no Finnish players. That's fine with me, although I am sure that many people, would at least find one players from at least one of those three countries, to be on the list.

The truth is, the moment FIFA demanded that 50 of the "top 100" should be current players (obviously to please sponsors, there is no other explanation) the list was doomed to irrelevance.

Nobody... and I mean NOBODY... would be able to come up with a respectable list of "100 best players ever", having to conform to those two demands. Simply because there is NO way you'll find 50 players currently playing who qualify as members of any "top 100".

Don't get me wrong, I think the list is stupid too... but NONE of us here in Xtratime would do any better than Pele did, having to squeeze in 50 current players. It's a recipe for failure, simple as that. Either you list the 100 best ever... or you make a list that includes 50 current players. You can't have both.

(And of COURSE Gerson would make any respectable "top 100", let's not be ridiculous) ;)

Originally posted by Ze da Fiel
mali,

perhaps we can add to the list the geniality of Guivarch, who was also a world champion in 1998;) He would fit in like a glove in the pathetic list of Pele.



guivarch have been injured in this wc, he made a hell to come back in this competition.
if you have the tape of the final, take a look at his 2 first actions, IMO, the referee haven't made correctly his job, baino have been a little hard with guivarch;)
+ the aimé jacquet tactic was not really in favor of forwards, guivarch defended as often as he attacked;)

A Final Note:

He also missed goals in final in the same rate he was breathing in the pitch..... great fact to enter the list of Pele;)

so what? did ronaldo scored in this match?:confused:

At least he scored in the tournament... something that the genious of Guivarch could not do..... specially that he played for the world champions.

Interesting fact: Guivarch is the only starting center forward of a World Champion team NEVER to have scored in a World Cup. Brilliant inclusion to the list of Pele;)

dooh!
how many time i will have to repeat it!!
he has been injured during this wc, he had a knee endomaged.
do you think that aimé jacquet was a fool?
if he selected him it's because he was the best french striker, 40 goals scored in the same season in championnat.
by the way, in this wc, france have been the best attack and the best defense.
almost all of the french players scored, even thuram:proud:

40 goals in one season entitles him to the list also of teh greatest 100 players alive;)

when he played for rennes, he scored 47 goals in the season (all competitions mixed);)

:confused: lili, I'm confused here. What's your point? Are you actually advocating that Guivarch should be in a reasonable World's Top 100 Ever? If so... have you lost your mind? :googly: Defending your countryman is a nice thing to say, but let's face reality...

Originally posted by Ze da Fiel
Interesting fact: Guivarch is the only starting center forward of a World Champion team NEVER to have scored in a World Cup.

:rolleyes:

i never said he deserved to be in the list.
i defend him about the bashings concerning the world cup.
this guy has been injured during this wc, i don't see why we would find excuse for ronaldo's outfit and not for guivarch knee prob. it's not fair.

now if you ask me which french players i would put in the list, i would say a good part of the squad who beat brazil in this famous quater final wc, remember?;)
giresse, platini, trésor, tigana, fernandez, batiston....

Originally posted by mali
depends...
if your source was sport fox news, maybe... (never know with an anti-french channel:D)
or if you were a pro-brazil you stopped to watch the match when the score was 2.0.
for the others, the score has been 3.0 Touche!

I guess I did stop watching it after the second goal. Either that or I was way too drunk by the time the third came.

Originally posted by Pila
Touche!

I guess I did stop watching it after the second goal. Either that or I was way too drunk by the time the third came.

i was sure:D

Originally posted by mali
i never said he deserved to be in the list.
i defend him about the bashings concerning the world cup.
this guy has been injured during this wc, i don't see why we would find excuse for ronaldo's outfit and not for guivarch knee prob. it's not fair.

:rolleyes: lili... the only person talking about Ronaldo is you. And the only one "finding excuses" is also you, for Guivarch.

Whether that is "fair" or not... I really cannot say. ;)

hell!
why would have not to talk about ronaldo after all?
since several guivarch bashings, i think i have a little right to do it, no?;)

Don't you guys believe that a team that came 3rd in the WC, and gave Brazil (the best), two hard games, would have at least 1 player that deserves to be in this list...



once again emphasising what I wrote in an earlier post..

I don't know if you guys agree but everyone is entitled to their own opinions... and I respect everyones opinions too...

Don't you think George Best should be in that list?..

Originally posted by BAFLI
Don't you guys believe that a team that came 3rd in the WC, and gave Brazil (the best), two hard games, would have at least 1 player that deserves to be in this list...






totally agreed!
the turks have been excellent in this world cup!
i think that turkey and belgium have been great!
something interesting to watch in this jokking wc.

Originally posted by BAFLI
Don't you guys believe that a team that came 3rd in the WC, and gave Brazil (the best), two hard games, would have at least 1 player that deserves to be in this list...

No, I believe that team should have one or more players in that WC's best 11. We're talking best 100 ever... being 3rd on a WC and giving two hard games to the WC's champions is hardly enough to qualify a player to a list of 100 best players ever.

...in my opinion. ;)

Originally posted by BAFLI
Don't you think George Best should be in that list?..

Yes, probably more than several of the guys who are there.

Bafli,

Not even Gerge Best made? Pele is definiltly on drugs.... how can VALDERRAMA, ROGER MILLA, PAPIN be on this list and GEORGE BEST be out of it??

Mali,

Tresor never played against Brazil in 86. Guivarch is a world cup joke... just face it. The guy managed to missed more open goals in 98 than Jean Pierre Papin in 86:tongue: ;)

And as GArrincha said... here we are discussing the best EVER ALIVE, not who finished second or third in such a world cup. Otheriwse put the starting 11 of every world cup winner and it would be much more fair;)

i'm talking about 82 world cup;)

Originally posted by mali
i'm talking about 82 world cup;)

Uh... no, you weren't. You mentioned "the squad who beat brazil in this famous quater final wc". That happened in 1986.

86, 82 it's the same, we were great:proud:

mali,

we din't even play france in 82;)

Originally posted by mali
86, 82 it's the same, we were great:proud:

until you met the Zermans;) :cool:

Originally posted by Garrincha
No, I believe that team should have one or more players in that WC's best 11.


Hasan Sas was in the WC 2002 best 11 as the left winger... but I still don't believe he deserves to be in the team more than Hakan Sukur...


btw, thanks for sharing your opinions... ;) :) (that goes to everyone who's given their opinions to my questions and suggestions...) :cool:

Originally posted by Ze da Fiel
until you met the Zermans;) :cool:

pfff... don't talk about those cheaters to me:stuckup:

Originally posted by mali
guivarch have been injured in this wc, he made a hell to come back in this competition.
if you have the tape of the final, take a look at his 2 first actions, IMO, the referee haven't made correctly his job, baino have been a little hard with guivarch;)
+ the aimé jacquet tactic was not really in favor of forwards, guivarch defended as often as he attacked;)
Yes, Guivarch is proberly the best striker the world has ever seen. Romário doesn't even come close to that superb sence of scoring that Guivarch owns. He was superb in France, then he showed the whole world his scoring skills in the World Cup and not to forget how he succeded in Newcastle and was the best striker in the Permiership. He had some problems in Glasgow Rangers. But that's understandable because of the high standrad in the scottish league...

The best player in this generation is clearly Zidane and offcourse the magnificent Henry , no question , think otherwise , than ur a jackass.:o

Henry has to ask permission even to polish the boots of Ronaldo, let alone Romario

Originally posted by Ze da Fiel
Henry has to ask permission even to polish the boots of Ronaldo, let alone Romario

we will see by the end of this year:)
i bet my money that henry will have the ballon d'or and the best player of the year.

Originally posted by Garrincha
:thumbsup: That's the spirit, I agree completely. And the truth is, if any one of us made a similar list there would inevitably be complaints and criticism from people with different opinions. Hell, I bet there are Korean fans who agree completely with the inclusion of Hong. :rolleyes:

Pele's biggest mistake, IMHO, is to allow politics to influence his choices. And if it's true that some of the names (like Nilton Santos and Van Basten) were added by FIFA and not by Pele, he should have excused himself from any responsibility regarding the selection.

I'm Korean and I have to say that every Koreans think that Hong deserves to be in the list. (including me;) )

However, I'm not gonna argue with you guys whether Hong is great defender or crap, y'll know it depends what you consider the most.

Even though Hong is included, Many Korea football fans think that this list is ridiculous.

gerson makes EASILY the top 20 of any brazilian list.... if you can't see him in the top 100, you should probably revise your knowledge about him, cause it is clearly way off

Reinaldo, Tostao, Dirceu Lopes, Falcao, Zico, Romario, Ronaldo, Cerezo, Junior, Nilton Santos, Djalma Santos, Rivelino, Ademir da Guia, Careca, Pele, Rivaldo, Coutinho, Zito, Pepe, Jairzinho. 20 names of living Brazilians that are better in my opinion and Gerson do not come near. I can put more and more, so easy. Gerson was a good player, with one of the best long balls ever, but that is it. I can do a effort with my memory and dig more people. If I consider people who died, Gerson may give up.

He is bitter of his self importance (Otherwise how would he say he and others carried Pele in his back ?) , getting in Kajuru "I want polemic because I have nothing to say" of Juca "Let me talk about something else but Corinthians please" constant attack.

Garrincha :

(And of COURSE Gerson would make any respectable "top 100", let's not be ridiculous)

of the world ? Never. Of Brazil ? He may come there.

Originally posted by JCamilo
Reinaldo, Tostao, Dirceu Lopes, Falcao, Zico, Romario, Ronaldo, Cerezo, Junior, Nilton Santos, Djalma Santos, Rivelino, Ademir da Guia, Careca, Pele, Rivaldo, Coutinho, Zito, Pepe, Jairzinho. 20 names of living Brazilians that are better in my opinion and Gerson do not come near.

Yeah, that makes sense. Ademir da Guia spent his whole life as Gerson's reserve because he's SO much better than Gerson. :rollani:

And Dirceu Lopes wasn't better than Gerson, either. Where did you come up with this "Gerson's only asset is the long pass" nonsense, anyway?
:confused:

Ze da Fiel, look again, George Best is on Pelé's list.

And JCamilo , Gerson was one of the greatest players of his generation. And I don't agree with on Ademir Da Guia, he was a great players, but true legends don't choke on their national teams. And Toninho Cerezo instead of Gerson, Cerezo was a good player, hard working guy but nothing spetacular.

Isn't Careca considered to be one of your best players of all time? :)

Originally posted by mali
pfff... don't talk about those cheaters to me:stuckup:

Why cheaters? As far as I remember, they beat you fair and square, specially in 1986.

in the semi-final?
noway!
don't you remember in which way schumacher killed batiston?!

yes he is orange,

And Gerson was better than Ademir da Guia, Junior (he did play in midfield afterwards), Direcu Lopes, Reinaldo (ok different positions, but Gerson was much more influential as a midfielder than Reinaldo as a center forward), Rivaldo, Zito , Pepe (how cna someone say that Pepe was better than GERSON??:eek: :confused: ), Cerezo etc.....

if your tryin to say that ronaldo is better , than your dumb man , look at henry than look at ronaldo , just look at th performance ... ronaldo only won a season when he was with madrid ... even though they didnt need him , if they bought RVN , still they would wi the season , while at barca , psv , inter , he could not win it , henry won it , with arsenal , monaco ... not a SUPERSTAR TEAM is it.

Originally posted by Twayka
if your tryin to say that ronaldo is better , than your dumb man , look at henry than look at ronaldo , just look at th performance ... ronaldo only won a season when he was with madrid ... even though they didnt need him , if they bought RVN , still they would wi the season , while at barca , psv , inter , he could not win it , henry won it , with arsenal , monaco ... not a SUPERSTAR TEAM is it.

If you are trying to suggest that Henry has a better overall career than Ronaldo, then you are an absolute and total clown. Period.

Originally posted by mali
in the semi-final?
noway!
don't you remember in which way schumacher killed batiston?!

I do, but you should blame the referee for not showing the red card, not the whole German team.

well, maybe, but the fact is that our players were very shocked by this!
not only he didn't have a red, but he didn't have even a fault against him, that a shame when you think in which way he agressed bastiston!

I remember Careca slightly from my childhood, and I have also seen him play on video of course. Does anyone of you have a special memory of him, maybe something especially good that he did? :)

Originally posted by Orange
I remember Careca slightly from my childhood, and I have also seen him play on video of course. Does anyone of you have a special memory of him, maybe something especially good that he did? :)
I remember his from his days in Napoli where he used to partner Diego Maradona. Ferrera recoverd the ball, played it to Maradona and he sent it further forward to Careca who scored. Counter attacks was Napoli's specialty.

He scored in the 1990 World Cup aswell, but was, just like Diego, injured after a long season and couldn't make him self justice. I don't recall if he was good or not back in '86.

I found this article:

Antonio de Oliveira Filho, better known as Careca, was among his country’s most promosing players in the early eighties. His powerful right-foot shot and pace made him lethal in front of goal. He started his career in Guarani and would have played up front for Brazil in their magic World Cup team of 1982 had he not been injured on the eve of the finals.

He moved to Sao Paulo after the World Cup in Spain and had several successful seasons there and was Brazilian champion of 1986 beating his old club Guarani in the final. The World Cup was held in Mexico that same year, and Careca was determined not to miss it again. He played a key role in yet another great Brazilian team which reached the quarterfinals and were beaten by France on penalties in one of the classic games in soccer history. Personally, Careca had a great tournament and scored five goals making him second on the topscorers’ list after Lineker.

Careca was soon tempted to join a top club in Europe and after staying another season with Sao Paulo, he teamed up with Diego Maradona and fellow Brazilian Alemao in Napoli in 1987. Careca was now ranked as one of the best strikers in the world and with Napoli he won several trophies, among them the Scudetto (Serie A championship) and the UEFA Cup beating Stuttgart with Careca as one of the goalscorers.

After six years in Napoli, he moved to Japan in 1993 as one of the foreign stars trying to set the Japanese league alight. Careca was then 33 and spent three years in Asia before returning home to Brazil in 1997. He was nearly forty when he retired having played in the lower leagues for a couple of years.

http://www.planetworldcup.com/LEGENDS/careca.html

I remember him as being best in the early to mid 80s. I guess I saw him mostly in 1986, when I was only 7-8 years old. Amazing that he played until a few years ago, but I guess his career was not the same as it had been since the early 90s. :)

Careca was brilliant in the same level as Marco Van Basten. Top scorer for Brazil in the 86 WC scoring 5 goals.... if he had gonne further he almost certainly wold have beaten Lineker and finished as top scorer... but that will always be a might.

One of the best center forwards i have ever seen play;) Up their with Van Basten, Romario & Ronaldo;) (and NO Henry or Guivarch thank you... that's to much for my inteligence):tongue: ;)

Yeah, that makes sense. Ademir da Guia spent his whole life as Gerson's reserve because he's SO much better than Gerson.

err, that is so not true. Gerson became a starter after the 66's and quit in the 70's. Ademir never got many chances simple for the same reason of Dirceu, the "player of clubs" non sense. Ademir da Guia was the best player of the only team able to beat Santos of Pele in their top with regularity. That simple.
His style was not suited (he was slow) to Zagallo not to mention...Zagallo took lots of players of Botafogo (since he come from there after all) not lots of players of Palmeiras.
And Dirceu had a problem - People sold the fish that it was him or Pele...what happened ?

Where did you come up with this "Gerson's only asset is the long pass" nonsense, anyway?

I never said that. I said the greatest stuff he had the long ball,the only expectional stuff was that. He could do other stuff, but nothing as outstanding as his long ball. However you do not ignore Gerson was totally blind of the right foot.

And I don't agree with on Ademir Da Guia, he was a great players, but true legends don't choke on their national teams. And Toninho Cerezo instead of Gerson, Cerezo was a good player, hard working guy but nothing spetacular.

Ademir did not had to chance that Gerson did Because Dude, Gerson "CHOCKED" in the NT. In the 66 he was out with the fame of "Pipoqueiro" and not to mention his famous "i am tripped in the stars" just before the game with England in 70s. If you will take the account for such non sense for Ademir, please does the same for Gerson.
Cerezo was not spetacular ? Yeah, sure.

And Gerson was better than Ademir da Guia, Junior (he did play in midfield afterwards), Direcu Lopes, Reinaldo (ok different positions, but Gerson was much more influential as a midfielder than Reinaldo as a center forward), Rivaldo, Zito , Pepe (how cna someone say that Pepe was better than GERSON?? ), Cerezo etc.....

Gerson was always a piece for his teams (he was never the best player of Botafogo and Pedro Rocha was superior to him for Sao Paulo). In the same period, Ademir was the best player of the second best brazilian team in the 60's. Dirceu was as good as Tostao. Reinaldo was in the level of maradona and influencial ? He was injuried the best centerfoward of brazil and of the second best brazilian team of end of 70's and start of 80's, Rivaldo is awesome player, Zito was much much better than Gerson and Pepe ? How can someone do not reckon this player that is simple the best player in this position ever to play ????

And the funny thing, In this list of 20 i did not even listed a goalkeeper, people like Carlos Alberto, Leandro, Nelinho, Joaozinho, Eder, Edu, Piazza, Jair da Costa, Amarildo, Evarista, Dino Sani, Oscar are not even there. And Are you going to give me that its laughable this list ? That Gerson is having a ego trip with his media-show ? Is he so great that he is a must have ? Or it was a just a total lack of respect with the opinion of something else ? Gerson is arguable, not a must have like those peope giving voice to him (Kajuru or Juca) pretend to be. Do anyone disagre with that and it is not enough exageration for this list and this idea of calling pele a idiot ? Yourself Garrincha , picked 2 names , Brasileiro 2 names. (I will ignore Ze about Pepe...such underated player) in 20...Not enough to show that its arguable, a matter of subjectivity ? It is not enough to show that all Gerson show off in the press are a out of sense and all "Pele is stupid" also ?

Jcamilo,

Man, as posted in a previous post, revise your knowledge of Gerson cause it is way off.

Never teh game has seen a game organizer and a master tactician inside the pitch like Gerson. It was him that lead Pele and Carlos Alberto to go and pressure Zagallo to put Rivelino in the left wing and TOSTAO (from Minas Gerais;) ) in the 1970 team. If it was not for him, bet that Zagallo would have not put Tostao in the pitch.

ANd Dirceu Lopes better than Gerson..... ok your a mineiro Jcamilo with all the biased opinion, but things to have a limit;)

Gerson was a master of positioning, leadership, and the best long passer this world has ever seen.;)

It was not him who did it.
Tostao was Already a member of the team, the top scorer of the classificatory that year. And Gerson is nowhere near Didi. The difference is your knowledge is basead on legends that Gerson himself spread about. I do not care for it.

As for Dirceu Lopes, he was better than Gerson, as good as Tostao, that simple. This put him in the level of Gerson easily. But if you do not get the point of how subjective you get in this level that nothing justify the bashing of Pele and the public scandal gerson is making...well fine.

Gerson was a master of positioning, leadership, and the best long passer this world has ever seen.

Is this true? About Gerson being the best long passer the world has ever seen?

if it is true, than so is this statement: DAGOODS is the best long passer the world has YET to see

:D :D :D

Jcamilo,

Valderrama, Hong, Deschamps, Michele Akers and cia are all better than Gerson.

The only one that can talk to Gerson about pin point passing in this world is Didi. After all, it was him who taught Gerson the lessons. Not even Beckham can talk to him in this quesite.

And for you info, Tostao was going to be bench in 1970 if it was not Gerson, Pele & Carlos Alberto, cause Zagallo was going to put Dario!

Originally posted by JCamilo
Ademir never got many chances simple for the same reason of Dirceu, the "player of clubs" non sense. Ademir da Guia was the best player of the only team able to beat Santos of Pele in their top with regularity. That simple.

Aren't you forgetting Cruzeiro?

Originally posted by JCamilo
His style was not suited (he was slow) to Zagallo not to mention...Zagallo took lots of players of Botafogo (since he come from there after all) not lots of players of Palmeiras.

Gerson wasn't in Botafogo anymore during WC 70, he was a Sao Paulo player I believe.

Originally posted by JCamilo
However you do not ignore Gerson was totally blind of the right foot.

So what? Are all the others players on the list "ambidestros"? I didn't think so.

Originally posted by JCamilo
In the same period, Ademir was the best player of the second best brazilian team in the 60's.

In the 60, Palmeiras was MAYBE fourth best, behind Santos, Botafogo and Cruzeiro. Don't you mean the 70s?

Originally posted by JCamilo
Reinaldo was in the level of maradona(...)

:wth: In the name of our friendship I'll let this one slide. :D

Originally posted by JCamilo
How can someone do not reckon this player that is simple the best player in this position ever to play ????

Since when is Pepe the best leftwinger ever?? :confused: :stress:

Originally posted by JCamilo
And the funny thing, In this list of 20 i did not even listed a goalkeeper, people like Carlos Alberto, Leandro, Nelinho, Joaozinho, Eder, Edu, Piazza, Jair da Costa, Amarildo, Evarista, Dino Sani, Oscar are not even there. And Are you going to give me that its laughable this list ?

No, that list is bizarre. I'm getting worried about you, JC. Now you're telling me that Amarildo, Oscar and Joaozinho were all better than Gerson?!? :googly:

Both Gerson and Amarildo played in Botafogo... and Gerson's contribution was MUCH more significant. I'm honestly astonished at the concept that Amarildo was better than Gerson; is that some joke that I'm not getting?
:confused:

Originally posted by JCamilo
That Gerson is having a ego trip with his media-show ?

What does Gerson's rabid and obnoxious egotrip have to do with his standing in football history? Nothing. Just as Maradona's paranoid delusions don't diminish the great player he was, and Pele's post-retirement blunders aren't enough to erase his entire career. ;)

Originally posted by JCamilo
Do anyone disagre with that and it is not enough exageration for this list and this idea of calling pele a idiot ? Yourself Garrincha , picked 2 names , Brasileiro 2 names. (I will ignore Ze about Pepe...such underated player) in 20...Not enough to show that its arguable, a matter of subjectivity ? It is not enough to show that all Gerson show off in the press are a out of sense and all "Pele is stupid" also ?

Gerson has as much right to his opinion as anyone else. Gerson is not the only person who has arrived to the simplistic conclusion that Pele is an idiot, far from it. I personally think that Pele is just trying to get on FIFA's "good side" so he can make business with them, and that's why he accepted to sign this ridiculously-political "top 100" list. :greed:

But if your point is that it's subjective... sure it is. That's the very essence of football, people see the same things from different perspectives. According to Pele's perspective (expressed on the list he signed), Suker and Trezeguet are among the "top 100 ever" while Reinaldo and Van Basten aren't – you tell me if it's laughable or not. Also according to Pele's original list, Abedi Pele and Kluivert are/were superior to Pedro Rocha and Rivelino. And according to your list, Amarildo and Dirceu Lopes were better than Gerson.

Of course it's all subjective, and we must respect everybody's opinions... but you're just proving my point about the difficulties in making such a list: If FIFA had invited you to make the list instead of Pele, chances are that you would be the one receiving all the criticism, and it would be your list getting called "laughable". Same thing if I had written the list, or anyone else. It was a doomed enterprise from the start. ;)

(Your insults are not allowed, and your foul mouth is not welcome here. Watch your language
– Garrincha).

Originally posted by Twayka
listen jackass , no 1 said career , im saying PLAYER, and now Henry is better than ronaldo tell yourself otherwise , but stop fooling yourself idiot

"while at barca , psv , inter" etc. etc... Does that ring a bell??? Is that not what you said? JACKASS, or doesn't that constitute more than half of his career.

The only thing I'll agree with is that Henry's season has been awesome and I think on a par with Ronaldo's (not in terms of goalscoring but in contribution for the team's performance for sure cause he is more involved).

Maybe you should read your own post before calling someone an idiot.

(There's no need to answer insults with insults.
– Garrincha)

Forget Henry and Ronaldo, Nihat is the best...:fero: :nasty: :tongue: j/k

As I live in England, I see Henry's performances week in, week out.. and as a Spurs fan it hurts me to say that Henry is a class act..:rolleyes: On his day, he can score some beautiful goals. He is the one man band for Arsenal at times. He's very quick and can ease past defenders. His scoring record at Arsenal speaks for itself.

I don't see Ronaldo as often but I see him often enough.. ;) Wasn't Ronaldo the top scorer in WC2002.. :confused: ;) The man who shone in WC 98 and is Brazil's Number 9. Being No.9 for Brazil isn't easy. ;) I must say he was much better in his Barca days, but he's still world class. The only thing I don't like about Ronaldo is, he was the player that scored Brazil's goal that sent us (Turkey) out of the WC.


Ronaldo was also chosen second best player of 2003 and Henry was 3rd.. This shows how hard it is to chose between the two..

I still think Nihat is better than both...:tongue: :D

Aren't you forgetting Cruzeiro?

Nope. I said Palmeiras could beat Santos in their top with regularity. Cruzeiro did it only in 66. Santos was no more in their top and that was not regular. However Palmeiras was able to beat Santos during all 60's, check out, everytime Santos was unable to win it was Palmeiras in their path, no one else. (did not happened everytime as it was expected , but happened enough)

Gerson wasn't in Botafogo anymore during WC 70, he was a Sao Paulo player I believe.

Gerson moved exactly in 1970. He was part of the botafogo team that won the (watever they called them) national title in 68/69 and that team was the base of Brazil 1970.

So what? Are all the others players on the list "ambidestros"? I didn't think so.

No. However a player able to perform well with both legs have a huge advantage of any player with a blind leg.

In the 60, Palmeiras was MAYBE fourth best, behind Santos, Botafogo and Cruzeiro. Don't you mean the 70s?

The great period of Academy was the 60's. the 70's was a already old version. For Cruzeiro I already explained why. For Botafogo the thing is simple, the Garrincha, Nilton and Didi team was indeed better, but a team that have gone at beast the first half of the 60's. The Gerson-Jairzinho- Roberto - PC Caju was good but no better than Palmeiras and only happened in the end of 60's. Just check the records of Palmeiras and see if Palmeiras's aint in the level of them.

In the name of our friendship I'll let this one slide.

You need not. Maradona was a greater player than Reinaldo because Reinaldo was destroyed and unable to fullfil his potential. However skill wise, Reinaldo was in the level of maradona, more faster , better finish and ambidextrous.

Since when is Pepe the best leftwinger ever??

it is my opinion. However who is better than him ? Pay attention that I meant real leftwingers, no adaptations allowed (like moving Zico to the left wing). Pepe was a monster.

No, that list is bizarre. I'm getting worried about you, JC. Now you're telling me that Amarildo, Oscar and Joaozinho were all better than Gerson?!?

why not ? Seriously ? What make Gerson so untouchable ? Good player, great long ball, sucessful but it is that odd ? Joaozinho was a monster of dribble and Oscar was almost perfect central defender.

Both Gerson and Amarildo played in Botafogo... and Gerson's contribution was MUCH more significant. I'm honestly astonished at the concept that Amarildo was better than Gerson; is that some joke that I'm not getting?

Amarildo was the player that could replace Pele , moved to inter and was the main playing winning the european cup. A true great player. Why is more significant ? The line Garrincha, Amarildo, Quarentinha, Zagallo was the greatest line of Botafogo history, Gerson was not in the middle of Bota's greatest.
However, you miss the point again, Amarildo is not one more player that could claim anything he want to be in the list and is not going wyld calling pele a idiot, traitor or anything like this because his huge self importance, neither the one giving idiots like Kfouri and Kajuru fuel to talk about this.

What does Gerson's rabid and obnoxious egotrip have to do with his standing in football history?

Nothing. But just like We dismiss Maradona with a "yeah, you are great, just not as greater" i am doing with Gerson who assume he is (and those two idiots) "able to carry pele in his shoulders to greatness".

Gerson has as much right to his opinion as anyone else.

But I am not taking from him his right to have a opinion. I am saying it is idiotical.

Suker and Trezeguet are among the "top 100 ever" while Reinaldo and Van Basten aren't – you tell me if it's laughable or not.

Not really laughable. I mean, I laugh because I found impossible, but so we are going always to laugh. You just laughed about Reinaldo, didnt you ?

And according to your list, Amarildo and Dirceu Lopes were better than Gerson.

I do think they are arguable as good. However I do not agree with that act of people who see that it is always arguable to make list.
I mean, Lists are really for Dagoods.

but you're just proving my point about the difficulties in making such a list:

That is it dude, Those are my points! I am proving your point and they are the same there is not problem here.

OK, so we've been agreeing in the most long-winded way possible. :D

And I didn't laugh at Reinaldo... only at the idea that he's on the same level as Maradona. ;)

But since that's on the world of "could've been", there's no point arguing that theory. If you believe that, nothing will convince you otherwise.

It was "what if scenario" but really, the point drifted long ago to the point that all we did is to prove out that we disagree and that do not became a feud for us to prove who is right or not or who is the best here, despite the size of the messages we like to build...

well, despite this, any subject that was bring one but the list are interesting, if you want to bring on.

Jcamilo,

your probably the only person in this world that puts Reinaldo in the same level as Maradona. Not even his mum does that, I bet;)

Of course there is people who put him in the level of Pele, those people will never acknowledge Reinaldo. Reinaldo skills are simple in that level. He was the player that matched Zico head by head (and funny how you put Zico in the level of Maradona) being totally crippled. Simple as that, Zico did not had the upper hand over Reinaldo, never.

Jcamilo,

Of course Zico never had the upper hand over Reinaldo, he had the legs, body, face etc... over him in almost all aspects of footballing quality. Zico even won titles over Reinaldo when both their teams were head to head;) And THAT you can't question whether you like it or not.

JCamilo
Thank U for the history lesson
Nice to hear it from someone
who actually was there
I like the What if dream of Reinaldo
I´m still searching for the perfect forward player

I can agree with JCamilo that it is arguable about Gerson
as it is with many players through the times
and ridiculous of bashing of Pelé in public
for a list of this sort

Out of curiousity
Garrincha who would U put ahead of Pepe
on the left wing?

Of course, this make Leivinha and Ronaldo better than Rivelino, dont them ? Or Giggia better than Zizinho...Or there goes...

When Reinaldo played ,he and zico are clearly the top players of brazil in quality. However with 16 anos reinaldo was already broken when Zico was protected by Flamengo. In 1978 it was Reinaldo, not Zico the great hope for talent. In 1981 in the classificatory it was Reinaldo, not Zico who was the differencial in the away games with Bolivia.

And the titles Zico won against Reinaldo...

In 1980 Flamengo could not beat Atletico with Reinaldo in the field. He got a red card when the game was 2-2 because he could not get up because his injury and the referee gave him a card for not wanting to get up when all the maracana was singing "bichado" because they could see that besides scoring the 2 goals, he could not even run.
In 1981 in the decisive match between Atletico and Flamengo for Libertadores, the one would decide which of the two would go ahead, with 18 minutes of game ,Jose Roberto Wright gave a red card to Reinaldo for a foul in the middlefield, not violent, the first time he come close to the ball, over zico. Reinaldo had not yellow, did not complained. So, Zico, never won anything over Reinaldo. However the media is only about flamengo and Zico to the point they forget that reinaldo even exist. Even Zico reckon reinaldo was the greatest player that played with him in the national team and the power of that atletico of Reinaldo. Do not transform the individual career of a player by the judgment of the teams they play with.

Dribble:

Have oyu ever seen gerson play? If yes, then i highly doubt that you understand about football in general.

And if your looking for a perfect forward.... look at Romario as a center forward, or Pele as a "ponta de lanca";) No need to go far

Jcamilo,

If Dener had not died in a car accident in 94, he would probably be bigger than Ronaldo today.

ZIco is a myth in Brazilian football... Reinaldo is not, unless he is in BH. Outside of MG he is just a good forward.

Zico was a authentic #10, while Reinaldo and authentic #9. The #10 are normally superior in quality (except finishing) thatn the # 9. Also, Zico scored more goals than Reinaldo as a midfielder (don't know if it true).'


How do you argue with taht? Was it because of the injury.... then if it was Reinaldo was not the best, cause he never prooved he was.;) And with injury or no injury NEVER Reinaldo played better than Zico.

JCamilo
Would U say it was club politics
was the reason for Zagallo being chosen over
Pepe and Canhoteiro

Ze
I have seen Gerson play in the WC of 1970

I know about his greatness
and appreciate it
but my point is that any player is arguable
many superstars are overrated
and there are some players that are overlooked
not as fortunate to even get a chance

Gerson is not overated, he is a unanimity in Brazil within fans and the sportsmedia.

For you to become an unanimity in football in Brazil you need to be very, very, very, very good.

"ZIco is a myth in Brazilian football... Reinaldo is not, unless he is in BH. Outside of MG he is just a good forward."

Ze
I guess U phrased this a little wrong
at least if U´re not arguing for JCamilo´s point
Sorry for the joke Ze,just couldn´t help it
but I get your point

Speaking of players not getting a chance
At the moment I would like to see Mancini as a right winger in NT
but sometimes players dont fit into the system
or to the coach

To some point all superstars get overrated
Even Nihat and Henry :-)

Dribble,

The only one who is phrasing things wrong here is you. Sorry to say that, but you got no clue about the football of Zico or Gerson... joking or not;) And nor does Jcamilo (and that really impresses me because he is a guy who i rate high is knowledge)

Henry has struck twice in the first half of the Arsenal v Celta Vigo game in the CL. The score is 2-0 at HT.

And if your looking for a perfect forward.... look at Romario as a center forward, or Pele as a "ponta de lanca"

Er, Skill wise Reinaldo was a perfect foward. In fact ze, before bashing Dribble, Romario claims that Reinaldo was the perfect foward he wanted to copy! Saying this about Reinaldo is not new, from Piazza, Tostao, Raul, Cruyfft, Pele and Coutinho (this one perhaps another perfect foward) are in the list of Reinaldo was a perfect foward.
However there is many perfect fowards.

ZIco is a myth in Brazilian football... Reinaldo is not, unless he is in BH. Outside of MG he is just a good forward.

However Ze, I am not saying about IF! I am saying about what happened. Reinaldo managed to play head to head with Zico. If He is reckongnized only in Minas, that is time "Are you people really know something about footbal ?"...
I must say that is false, Reinaldo is widely reckognized outside Minas as well.
If you are going to use public opinion as evidence, please argue with Dagoods.

Zico was a authentic #10, while Reinaldo and authentic #9. The #10 are normally superior in quality (except finishing) thatn the # 9. Also, Zico scored more goals than Reinaldo as a midfielder (don't know if it true).'

It is true that Zico scored more than Reinaldo. But that is so funny - Reinaldo could not play a sequence of games since he was 18 years! Reinaldo could not train during the weeks, had to play just with talent, no physical ability and quit with 27 years old!
And the number 10 is normally superior ??? That is the oddest thing I heard. Do you remember the number 10 of Reinaldo, Leonidas, Romario ? (If you tell me that people like Marcelo, Everton, Mazinho, Zinho, Juninho Paulista) are superior to those people...

How do you argue with taht? Was it because of the injury.... then if it was Reinaldo was not the best, cause he never prooved he was. And with injury or no injury NEVER Reinaldo played better than Zico.

I did not said he played badly because the injury. Learn to read , dude. I said that even with the Injury HE DID PLAYED HEAD TO HEAD WITH ZICO. I am not playing what if. I clearly said that skill wise Reinaldo was amazing and he did showed it. And Several times and tournaments he was superior to zico, the final of 1980 among those.

Gerson is not overated, he is a unanimity in Brazil within fans and the sportsmedia.

He is not a unanimity of great player. Not a unanimity about being the greateness he claims to be. And are you going to use Media as evidence ? Stop talking about knowledge Ze, you only description of ze is "media rank him highly" you even come wiht the knowledge he put tostao in the team which is false. If you want to talk about Gerson qualities please do so. But start on - the public opinion you use to dismiss reinaldo do not rank Zico alongside Maradona and you do so. Please, could you use the same coin to all others ?


Drible:

Would U say it was club politics
was the reason for Zagallo being chosen over
Pepe and Canhoteiro

I must say that i would be dreaming talking about a player Reinaldo could be if he was not injuried. But I am not. I am saying about the player he was , despite being injuried. A difference. I am not playing what ifs.

Not club politics despite the more power of Botafogo, People have the tendencie to diminish Zagallo's talent in face of the individualities arround him, but tatically he was great and much more to fact he made the life of Nilton Santos, Didi easier. The reason was tatical. Some claim Canhoteiro also asked not to go, but some claim this is not true.

oooooooooooooooooh i feel so ashamed ... yeah right , like that was such a big insult , ive seen more insults in this site ,

We do not mind if you saw more insults in any site, but for what we heard it was not in the arsenal forum. So behave like they want people to behave there and be wiser than name calling the moderator of this site

I think this person deserves a ban. :stuckup:

ok, rules are rules and they do apply to everyone

moron obook , well i do think of moron as an insult , but surely the fm doesnt does he , and i must say moron is a word used in many ways , in my language u dont wanna know what it is ,

lets say, learn to behave. The Moderator is not god and is not active every 24 hours. However you must start to behave here and start to post something about footbal. And forget about the fm, if we start to use the measurement of the fm of arsenal forum you would be deleted from here. So bare with ours tolerance and use it to give us contribution

yeah whatever, im sure u wont be band for that

Originally posted by Twayka
moron obook , well i do think of moron as an insult , but surely the fm doesnt does he

He does, and I will get a warning for my post, but if this gets you banned, it was worth it.

yeah , it goes both ways

Jcamilo,

Zico also had injuries and still played a top level... he just din't have the sequence.

Btw

Reinaldo is not in the same level as Maradona.... not even in Belo Horizonte were he was king... probably in Jupiter he can be one day
Zico is miles ahead of Reinaldo in footballing skills (not that i'm saying reinaldo is bad.. just that Zico was ZICO!!)
Gerson is miles better than Michele Akers, Valderrama, Hong, Deschamps, Papin, Nakata etc........
Gerson is miles better than Leivinha
Gerson was better than Ademir da Guia
Gerson was better than Dirceu Lopes

Tostao was not a perfect striker.. very good but not perfect player.

About the numbers I'm talking about classical concepts..... thoght you would be more inteligent than that.

And Gerson may not be a unanimity of a great player i Belo Horizonte.... but in Rio & Sao Paulo he is. ;)

Zico also had injuries and still played a top level... he just din't have the sequence.

Ze, the great injury of Zico was in 1985. Reinaldo was with 16 years and he kept worse. He could not train.

Reinaldo is not in the same level as Maradona.... not even in Belo Horizonte were he was king... probably in Jupiter he can be one day

Skill wise ? Reinaldo dribbling was as good, ball control as good. Finishing way better. The use of both legs way better. Heading way better. Long kicking and passing worse. Speed of movemment better, speed of tought similar. However you will repeat and repeat and repeat the same thing...

Zico is miles ahead of Reinaldo in footballing skills (not that i'm saying reinaldo is bad.. just that Zico was ZICO!!)

And Reinaldo is Reinaldo. He is the player that was the adversary of Zico in his top without Zico being able to claim to having beat down him.

Gerson is miles better than Michele Akers, Valderrama, Hong, Deschamps, Papin, Nakata etc........

So ? Gerson is not female, not playing today and every opinion is arguable and Gerson is nowhere untouchable as Pele or Platini would be.

Gerson is miles better than Leivinha


You are the one who used the logic that Zico won the title against Reinaldo, so he was better. Leivinha won the title over Gerson (I used against Rivelino, but since 1974 hurts) but works as well. Are you going to use one measurement for a player of your choice and other for a player you dislike ? That is really fair

Gerson was better than Ademir da Guia

Your opinion, Arguable opinion.

Gerson was better than Dirceu Lopes

Your opinion, Arguable opinion.

Tostao was not a perfect striker.. very good but not perfect player.

Tostao was not a perfect striker, more complete and inteligent player than mostly. But you know why he was not a perfect striker, because he was not a striker and I never said it.

About the numbers I'm talking about classical concepts..... thoght you would be more inteligent than that.[/quote

Hah, Admit that was non-sense. The Number 9 is the shirt of Atletico, number 7 of Botafogo and of course, the position does not make a player better than other function.
However It is fun how you just joined Gallo in the Zidane is the reason behind Ronaldo quality, classical concept. Mistake.

[QUOTE]And Gerson may not be a unanimity of a great player i Belo Horizonte.... but in Rio & Sao Paulo he is.

Ze, Learn to read, please. Media is not a evidence and he is for sure not the unanimity you claim everywhere. I find him a great player but I am not making the mistake that everyone thinks as I do and use public opinion as evidence. Being a great player - as all I listed are as well - does not make you the best possible, untouchable. I find funny how in all this argument you are unable to describe Gerson's footballing skills. You are just giving the opinion even tryied the non-sense of Him being the cause of Tostao to be in the team.

"Reinaldo could not play a sequence of games since he was 18 years! Reinaldo could not train during the weeks, had to play just with talent, no physical ability and quit with 27 years old! "

he had a bad luck. We will never know how he would perform if he was in a normal physical situation. That's why he can't be compared to Maradona or Zico, he could have been better (wich i think was improbable) but wasn't. Hey, if we think like this we could Say denner was better than ronaldo or others that couldn't play because of an early injury.

And Gerson was a great player and deserves to be in any list of the 100 best players ever. He didn't have pace, but had a great field vision, a great long and short pass, a great outside shot and could also driblle.

Brasileiro:

Let me explain again - Reinaldo showed the skills DESPITE the injuries. Anyone who saw it saw him facing head to head Zico and showing skills alike Diego. We did not know what would happen if he did not got the injuries, that was what happened with the injuries! He leveled with Zico ,despite having not physical shape, just with his skill and inteligence.

He didn't have pace, but had a great field vision, a great long and short pass, a great outside shot and could also driblle.

Arguable. That is also a good description of Beckham. No pace, field vision, long and short pass, shot and both of them could just dribble enough to keep the ball but that is not a big note.
Would you not see how arguable is this ?

Thanks Brasileiro!;)

Jcamilo,

Beckham does have a good game vision;)

I agree, i said it. I like Beckham. He have also good passing (why to say short and long after all) , Kicking, Tatical vision all that. (He is at same time the most over rated player in the world and under rated player in the world)...

ok.. my bad read it wrong. Agree with you on the beckham rating.


Btw, SORRY but I'm right on this one of Gerson.... ever Garrincha (who i never agree with) and brasileiro who is new and looks like he knows his stuff agree with me;)

Originally posted by JCamilo
Beckham (He is at same time the most over rated player in the world and under rated player in the world)...

How does that work? :confused:

man utd fans & british press overate him to hell.

jealousy fans that hate him cause he is a fabricated superstar completely underate the guy and hate him because he is rich, famous, dresses well and likes the posh lifestyle.:D

I think he is a good dresser.. with brill pin point passes.;) :cool:

Yeah, pretty much this. He was over hyped by people who mixed his marketing work with his talent. In answer people labeled him as useless player that can only cross, which is a exageration of big proportions.
(Nothing more funny than Galvao Bueno who until 2002 everygame was "So tem fama, nunca vi fazer nada", ate que o falcao falou em um jogo "beckham e um jogador que desempenha um grande papel tatico" para o galvao so elogiar o cara...)

And Ze,
I do not agree with Brasileiro and Garrincha and I developed your own line of agreement. But fine, I will take Garrincha's word as evidence for everything you say now :happy:

please don't.... we will make 100 + posts threads all the time:tongue: :D :D :D Specially if you talk about Botafogo & Bebeto de Freitas:yuck: :rollani: :happy: :happy: :happy: :happy:

:tongue: :ass: :D

:tongue: ;) :howler: :howler: :howler: :howler:

Specially if you talk about Botafogo & Bebeto de Freitas

Really ? I will ask now your opinion about Luizao going to Botafogo.
So Garrincha, what Ze have to say ? :happy: :howler:

I have NO idea what Ze thinks. I suppose he couldn't care less, really. After the way Luisao abandoned Corinthians, who can blame him?

On the other hand... I'm happy. With Luisao, finally we'll have a striker, which we currently don't have. :stress:

Well,

It was pathetic the way the guy left Vasco, Corinthians & Gremio. SO he is a guy that has no credibility with a lot of clubs. BUt in the other hand he is a brilliant center forward. He is far away from being a craque, but he will do whatever the manager askes him to.. and he will bang in the goals.

He would be the solution for Corinthians right now... then we sign a playmaker and we have a competitive team again. That is basically what we need... a real center forward and a playmaker... the 2 most expensive type of players!:eek: :o :( ;)

Ze, I've read that Corinthians' leftback Kleber will probably be negotiated to Europe on the middle of the year. With the money from his negotiation Corinthians intends to pay some debts and sign some new players.

Kleber's substitute in the leftback may be Athirson; Bebeto (who is Athirson's new agent) said in today's 'Lance' that he's negotiating with Rivellino, and that he expects to close the deal by next week.

Athirson - ive seen him play last year a lot and i liked him....i asked about him in the Juve forum (not in XT since i didnt know about the site yet) but they said he wasnt good enough and will not play for them....can anyone tell me how he is doing now....and a little more about his game...

Decent player offensively, terrible marking.

Could do well as a left-mid in a small club in Europe, but not good enough fot a big club, unless he changed his style completely.

Garrincha,

I think Athirson will be able to sort out the midfield. Rodrigo sucks so bad is not even funny..... that guy is a second division player.

Now we need a center forward so we wont be the laughing stock of the Brasileirao.... as we were of the Paulistao:( :o

Do not worry Ze, Sao Paulo will still help you people in the brasileirao :D

Arthison, I will laugh even more, another darling of midia who does not play since years ago. Corinthians need a lot more than just 2 players.

Jcamilo,

With the current level of brazilian club football, we don't need much.

Our defense is good.. our DM's are ok..... our attakcing mids are terrible and our atack is even worst. Only Gil is anything decent... the rest is pure crap:yuck:

Athirson will liven things up and a center forward will score goals. The level of Brazilian football is very low.... only Santos have a top class team that can play against Euro clubs at the moment......... and i got to check Cruzeiro.

Apart from those 2... no other club can face a top euro club:( :o in this moment

The thing Ze is that the teams are solid enough and Corinthians is nothing. Corinthians defense is not good, it is not the trash of universe, but it will only work in a organized team. Ricon still a joke. Playing for his past. When a former player like him is the best player of one team it is a bad signal. And Arthison never did anything.
Corinthians do not need another "baciada", it needs organization and calm work. Do not have hope because of the "level" , with this level , this crap paulista, Corinthians was almost relegated.

I agree, Corinthians needs five or six GOOD players. Not the "baciada" method, signing ten or twelve agent-owned players and hoping to get a handful of good "finds" in the mix (like they did in january)... Corinthians needs handpicked players for specific positions.

Today's Corinthians is relegation material, no question.

Not to mention they have to make a solid building process, not the "get the dust and spread" and see which figure will show up. That means, calm, heads in the place, control, no outside interference...but that is does not sound like Corinthians.
Some of the "crap" players they hired may still be usefull if worked, but the players that are former players in activity you can leave to other *coughriocough* teams...That is why Arthison smells like the same spirit.
Baciadas are too bad, Atletico is having luck because Bonamingo seems like this kind of hard worker,but all and all, 15 players hired to find that the best new player was already ours, a young boy with 18 years named Renato.

What's the deal of brazilian players changing clubs that easily? even if they were the synbol of the team? and why on hell is so usuall that a major team wins the championship and next year he is in second division or fighting to not descend?, and this last years Sao Caetano's kind of team leaving a good image in Libertadores and bigger clubs making a fool of themselves, is this common? always was like this? I can remember Sao Paulo's or Santos eras, the same that happens here (usually River or Boca) when a team mantein the top level for more than a tournament.

Santos is keeping his team quite very far, but Fangio, the money talks. It is easier to keep the players when you have money and structure to keep this player. Both Us and You guys in argentina have clear problem and the euro teams come here and knock knock. So, unless a club is extremelly stable, he lost a lot of players. This make the class of gypsie players (they are always present, just recently they are bigger) to be more important because they are cheaper but experient enough to impress. This way it does seems like not player ever stays despite we having some good examples of stability (Rogerio Ceni in Sao Paulo and Luis Fabiano is there for a good time, Santos, Ricardinho of Cruzeiro recently remained there for years, the Guilherme-Marques duo lasted 4 years in Atletico, etc).

Sorry J, I express myself badly, I meant changing from Flamengo to Fluminense kind of thing, like from Boca to River or viceversa. The European taling players it's just annoying, the last fashion trend? I've heard Burdisso may be sell to Russia??????? what the hell???? I made a thread on that is just incredibly. Or perhaps the rivalry between Corinthians and Palmeiras is nota that bad, may be I'm wrong as I don't know the classic rivalries, except from Fla and Flu.

But if the players are more easy to left, no identity created.
plus, TV age produce such closeness with the player unlike in the past, he is everyday in the tv, that he became less myth , more human and as human he is not see with the passion as players are see back them. Result, the passion of the past is gone, making easier to change.