Nesta VS Bergomi : Who Is The Fifth Greatest Italian Defender Of All-Time - Page 5 - Xtratime Community
View Poll Results: Who Is The 5th Best Italian Defender Ever
Giuseppe Bergomi 7 33.33%
Alessandro Nesta 14 66.67%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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post #81 of 106 (permalink) Old January 4th, 2017, 02:04
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I vote for Nesta and I don't say bergomi was not good however nesta was better than him


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post #82 of 106 (permalink) Old January 4th, 2017, 04:42
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they are really good players but not as good as vierchowod or collovati.

Luigi De Agostini shouldn't even be in the conversation. He wasn't even as good as prime benarrivo.
Collovati is not a legendary defender.
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post #83 of 106 (permalink) Old January 4th, 2017, 15:17
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Collovati is not a legendary defender.
Watch Euro 80 and WC 82 and tell me who was the best defender in each tournoment.
Highest ratings were given to collovati.

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post #84 of 106 (permalink) Old January 5th, 2017, 22:51
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Watch Euro 80 and WC 82 and tell me who was the best defender in each tournoment.
Highest ratings were given to collovati.
Do you have a link to the ratings?
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post #85 of 106 (permalink) Old January 5th, 2017, 23:45
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Do you have a link to the ratings?
Now? No..it was well known though. I watched the games on VHS ( uncle had them recorded years ago). You can still watch some of the 1982 full games on youtube.

Collovati was superb. I've only ever seen him beaten badly in one game. It was a local derby in 1985 when hately beat him with a header.

He was a very dynamic player. PLayed a lot like cannavaro but was taller.

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post #86 of 106 (permalink) Old January 7th, 2017, 00:35
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I've made a little research: Collovati was effectively named in the all-star team of the 1982 World Cup, along with Claudio Gentile; Scirea and Cabrini were not in the team.

However, Collovati was not in the team of the tournament of Euro 1980. Gentile and Scirea yes.

Most of Italian football fans consider Gaetano Scirea as the best Italian defender ever along with Franco Baresi (and maybe Paolo Maldini). No-one considers Collovati at the same level. Even on this blog, that is quite reliable and if I've well understood is linked with this forum, Collovati is ranked as the 13th best Italian center-back ever. Good, very good, but not legendary.

But he had a great World Cup tournament in the 1982 winning campaign, according to FIFA.
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post #87 of 106 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2017, 02:19
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I've made a little research: Collovati was effectively named in the all-star team of the 1982 World Cup, along with Claudio Gentile; Scirea and Cabrini were not in the team.

However, Collovati was not in the team of the tournament of Euro 1980. Gentile and Scirea yes.

Most of Italian football fans consider Gaetano Scirea as the best Italian defender ever along with Franco Baresi (and maybe Paolo Maldini). No-one considers Collovati at the same level. Even on this blog, that is quite reliable and if I've well understood is linked with this forum, Collovati is ranked as the 13th best Italian center-back ever. Good, very good, but not legendary.

But he had a great World Cup tournament in the 1982 winning campaign, according to FIFA.

Bruno conti was not in 1982 world cup all star team and yet was better than Boniek who had 1 good game.Conti was italys best player in the 1982 world cup. Rossi scored 6 goals, yes but conti was the true star.

its clear you're only looking at stats rather than actually watching the player.

for instance on this site ( im pretty sure its dearmans blog) gentile is above vierchowod. anyone who knows and watches football would put vierchowod over gentile.

rather then just go by what you read ( no offence its clear you havent watched much old football) how about you actually try and find games to watch.

in my view collovati was the best defender for italy in 1980 and 1982..if you trust fifa more than me..ok fine..but watch the games rather than just living by reputation.

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post #88 of 106 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2017, 02:21
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the list is pretty bad ( on that blog) he lists fernando de napoli as a winger lol

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post #89 of 106 (permalink) Old January 9th, 2017, 02:23
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gattuso is so overrated..lol you actually take this blog serious? gattuso over De Rossi or Bagni?

this guy doesn't know football..he knows NAMES.

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post #90 of 106 (permalink) Old January 10th, 2017, 15:09
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Concerning that blog, I believed that it was linked with this forum. I read a lot of rankings on the site and there are quite a lot of things I don't agree with, but I appreciate the attempt to establish objective parametres. I repeat: I don't agree with several things, but I appreciate the project.

Returning to Collovati, I don't have the time to watch the full matches unfortunately. But don't underrate the meaning of reputation. You don't have to be an expert of classical music to know the importance of W.A. Mozart and you don't have to be an expert of fine arts to know that Leonardo, Michelangelo and Raphael were the masters of the Renaissance. So, everyone knows that Gaetano Scirea was the best Italian defender of that era; if 100 people, including my father, tell me the same thing, it's not the first person with a different opinion that make me change my mind: it's 100 vs 1. But it's possible that Collovati played better than him during the seven matches of the 1982 World Cup.

Anyway, I know very well that Bruno Conti deserved a place in the team of the tournament, FIFA has always been a little bit anti-Italian in its decisions

And you clearly underrate Gattuso. (And you can't invite me to see the full matches in this case, because I saw Gattuso during his whole career.) Just a match to make you understand his greatness: Milan-Manchester United 3-0, second leg of the 2006-07 Champions League semi-final. Just because he was not a skillful player it doesn't mean he was not a great player. Technique and football skills are for the Cristiano Ronaldo's (nullified by Gattuso in that match) and the Messi's, but Gattuso was a defensive midfielder and was the best in the world in this role during his career. Milan wouldn't win two Champions Leagues and Italy wouldn't have won the 2006 World Cup without Gattuso.
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post #91 of 106 (permalink) Old January 11th, 2017, 10:25
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Concerning that blog, I believed that it was linked with this forum. I read a lot of rankings on the site and there are quite a lot of things I don't agree with, but I appreciate the attempt to establish objective parametres. I repeat: I don't agree with several things, but I appreciate the project.

Returning to Collovati, I don't have the time to watch the full matches unfortunately. But don't underrate the meaning of reputation. You don't have to be an expert of classical music to know the importance of W.A. Mozart and you don't have to be an expert of fine arts to know that Leonardo, Michelangelo and Raphael were the masters of the Renaissance. So, everyone knows that Gaetano Scirea was the best Italian defender of that era; if 100 people, including my father, tell me the same thing, it's not the first person with a different opinion that make me change my mind: it's 100 vs 1. But it's possible that Collovati played better than him during the seven matches of the 1982 World Cup.

Anyway, I know very well that Bruno Conti deserved a place in the team of the tournament, FIFA has always been a little bit anti-Italian in its decisions

And you clearly underrate Gattuso. (And you can't invite me to see the full matches in this case, because I saw Gattuso during his whole career.) Just a match to make you understand his greatness: Milan-Manchester United 3-0, second leg of the 2006-07 Champions League semi-final. Just because he was not a skillful player it doesn't mean he was not a great player. Technique and football skills are for the Cristiano Ronaldo's (nullified by Gattuso in that match) and the Messi's, but Gattuso was a defensive midfielder and was the best in the world in this role during his career. Milan wouldn't win two Champions Leagues and Italy wouldn't have won the 2006 World Cup without Gattuso.
im not underrating gattuso. De Rossi and Bagni were better players. Colovatti was world class. For me the top 5 italian CB of all time or at least in MY VEIWING are

1: Baresi
2: Scriea
3:Nesta
4:Vierchowod
5:Collovati


i knew people would question collovati but i watched him in so many games and im giving you my HONEST opinon not what others think.

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post #92 of 106 (permalink) Old January 11th, 2017, 18:22
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Yes, I understand that it's your opinion and I respect that.

About Gattuso / De Rossi / Bagni: I didn't have the chance to see Bagni directly, I only know about his reputation of hard style and tenacious player, but there plenty of players with the same reputation, e.g. Romeo Benetti or Giuseppe Furino. And Benetti is the one with the best global reputation, but I repeat, they're players that I don't know very well.

Between Gattuso and De Rossi I don't hesitate a second to choose Gattuso. De Rossi has better technical skills but the importance of Gattuso's tackles in every team he played was enormous. Moreover, Rome's fans accuse him to do mediocre performaces during 3/4 of the season to suddenly return to a very good level in the final part of the season, especially in the years with national teams tournaments. And with national team he's a better player than with Rome, he does his best. By contrast, Gattuso was a player who always performed at 110% of his possibilities, both at a World Cup final and in a Milan-Cesena of the national cup. De Rossi is not loved by all Rome's fans, despite having played all his career in the club (till now), Gattuso was adored by Milan's fans. He won plenty of accolades during his career and was the player who guaranteed tactical equilibre to a team that played with Pirlo, Seedorf, Rui Costa and later Kaká in the midfield. The only important trophy in De Rossi's career is the 2006 World Cup, during which he didn't played four matches out of seven due to a red card against United States. Ok, it's only my personal opinion, but I tried to argument it with some facts

About the center-backs: Even if I really appreciate Vierchowod and I think that he's underrated from Italian football fans (I have the impression that he's more appreciated abroad than in Italy), I think that the 4th place of all time is a little bit exaggerated. Maradona famously stated about him that it was relatively easy to dribble him, but that he was enormously tenacious and continued to run after him over and over again; he also said: "Vierchowod has muscles even in the eyebrows" lol. But Italy has had better defenders and it's not Vierchowod's fault, but rather the Italian school that is really great for goalkeepers and defenders. I'd put above him Franco Baresi, Scirea, Paolo Maldini (a central defender during a part of his career), Nesta and Fabio Cannavaro with no doubts. And we're already at five. Other Italian defenders with a better reputation than him are Bergomi, Gentile and Costacurta, even if they are favorite from the fact to haved played in winning and famous teams.

Last edited by Sindelarr; January 11th, 2017 at 18:27.
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post #93 of 106 (permalink) Old January 11th, 2017, 19:25
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Yes, I understand that it's your opinion and I respect that.

About Gattuso / De Rossi / Bagni: I didn't have the chance to see Bagni directly, I only know about his reputation of hard style and tenacious player, but there plenty of players with the same reputation, e.g. Romeo Benetti or Giuseppe Furino. And Benetti is the one with the best global reputation, but I repeat, they're players that I don't know very well.

Between Gattuso and De Rossi I don't hesitate a second to choose Gattuso. De Rossi has better technical skills but the importance of Gattuso's tackles in every team he played was enormous. Moreover, Rome's fans accuse him to do mediocre performaces during 3/4 of the season to suddenly return to a very good level in the final part of the season, especially in the years with national teams tournaments. And with national team he's a better player than with Rome, he does his best. By contrast, Gattuso was a player who always performed at 110% of his possibilities, both at a World Cup final and in a Milan-Cesena of the national cup. De Rossi is not loved by all Rome's fans, despite having played all his career in the club (till now), Gattuso was adored by Milan's fans. He won plenty of accolades during his career and was the player who guaranteed tactical equilibre to a team that played with Pirlo, Seedorf, Rui Costa and later Kaká in the midfield. The only important trophy in De Rossi's career is the 2006 World Cup, during which he didn't played four matches out of seven due to a red card against United States. Ok, it's only my personal opinion, but I tried to argument it with some facts

About the center-backs: Even if I really appreciate Vierchowod and I think that he's underrated from Italian football fans (I have the impression that he's more appreciated abroad than in Italy), I think that the 4th place of all time is a little bit exaggerated. Maradona famously stated about him that it was relatively easy to dribble him, but that he was enormously tenacious and continued to run after him over and over again; he also said: "Vierchowod has muscles even in the eyebrows" lol. But Italy has had better defenders and it's not Vierchowod's fault, but rather the Italian school that is really great for goalkeepers and defenders. I'd put above him Franco Baresi, Scirea, Paolo Maldini (a central defender during a part of his career), Nesta and Fabio Cannavaro with no doubts. And we're already at five. Other Italian defenders with a better reputation than him are Bergomi, Gentile and Costacurta, even if they are favorite from the fact to haved played in winning and famous teams.
If you never saw Bagni play, that means you never saw benetti play. Benetti was better. Gattuso was a very very limited player who by the age of 30 was finished as his game was based on running around and tackling. He was good for his role but De Rossi has been italys best midfield player not named Pirlo in the past 18 years. Unlike Benetti and Bagni who were good until there early 30's, gattuso couldn't even be useful anymore.Bagni was combatitive but scored a lot of goals for his position. Better footballer than gattuso. gattuso had a simple job and he did it well but as a player he was VERY limited. Furino was more like him, Furino was just a brute who ran around a lot but was a limited player. De Rossi was a little inconsistant in his youth but from the age of 27-28 he has easily surpassed ANY gattuso.The best gattuso i saw was 2004-2005 and stil i never saw him as a great player.

Right now you are only looking at reputation. Bergomi,gentile and costacurta were not better than Vierchowod. I WATCHED ALL THESE PLAYERS. ALL of them. You're only going by reputation.

Lineker,trevor francis, gianfranco zola,maradona and marco van basten all said vierchowod was the toughest defender they ever played against.Graeme Souness, who played with defenders like alan Hansen,willie miller and mark Lawrenson said Vierchowod was the best he's ever seen.

In truth, Bergomi was a very overrated player. Dont get me wrong he was an excellent defender but he is overrated in history, same with gentile.

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Last edited by pirri; January 11th, 2017 at 19:33.
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post #94 of 106 (permalink) Old January 11th, 2017, 19:56
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Only because I'm 30 that doesn't mean that I haven't seen any of the players mentioned in my post. Concerning the defenders, the only two that I have not personally seen are Scirea and Gentile. I know very well all the others, even if I saw only the last part of Bergomi, Vierchowod and Costacurta's careers (but all the three were still very good defenders even in their thirties).
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post #95 of 106 (permalink) Old January 11th, 2017, 20:09
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About Gattuso, I'm definitely sure that you still underrate him, but everyone is free to have his own opinion. My only regret is not to have seen Benetti, who has a great reputation. But Gattuso is a player ugly to see but definitely necessary to the team. Like Inzaghi in the forward line: awful style, bad technique, but terribly effective.

About the accolades (we talked about that both for the Rivera/Totti paragon and for the Gattuso/De Rossi's): it's not the principal parameter to judge a player, that's obvious, but it counts. I read a lot of people who saw the players of the 60's stay that Di Stéfano was even better than Pelé, but Pelé is remembered by most as the best footballer of all time. Di Stéfano never even played a match in a World Cup, Pelé won three World Cups, two of which as a protagonist. Gattuso made actively part of great teams, unlike Furino (substituted by Bonini at Juventus as a request by Platini) and Bagni. I hope I well explained my point of view, if you'll repeat for the third time that I only talk by reputation I'll give up.
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post #96 of 106 (permalink) Old January 11th, 2017, 23:56
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About Gattuso, I'm definitely sure that you still underrate him, but everyone is free to have his own opinion. My only regret is not to have seen Benetti, who has a great reputation. But Gattuso is a player ugly to see but definitely necessary to the team. Like Inzaghi in the forward line: awful style, bad technique, but terribly effective.

About the accolades (we talked about that both for the Rivera/Totti paragon and for the Gattuso/De Rossi's): it's not the principal parameter to judge a player, that's obvious, but it counts. I read a lot of people who saw the players of the 60's stay that Di Stéfano was even better than Pelé, but Pelé is remembered by most as the best footballer of all time. Di Stéfano never even played a match in a World Cup, Pelé won three World Cups, two of which as a protagonist. Gattuso made actively part of great teams, unlike Furino (substituted by Bonini at Juventus as a request by Platini) and Bagni. I hope I well explained my point of view, if you'll repeat for the third time that I only talk by reputation I'll give up.
I understand your point..I'm just stating who the better player was. Sometimes some things work out

Whos the best english striker of all time? It's Jimmy Greaves is it not? I'm talking about talent too..not just statistics..

lots of people will say Geoff Hurst or Gary Lineker..
Some will say Shearer Or rooney
A few would even say Keegan

for me it's greaves. I SUSPECT with how you define things Lineker would be your choice.

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post #97 of 106 (permalink) Old January 12th, 2017, 20:32
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You have personally seen Jimmy Greaves or you're only looking at reputation? (I'm joking.)

I would have answered Greaves, too. I've always had a preference to ancient football in general; moreover, Greaves made part of a World Cup winning team, had very good skills for a striker and had a great goal average during his career. He also briefly played in Italy and scored almost a goal per game; this has always impressed me, because there a few British footballers that played in Italy, most of them with little success. (He had a falling out with the team at Milan, but he had demonstrated to have the quality to be a top player even in Italy.)
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post #98 of 106 (permalink) Old January 13th, 2017, 03:49
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You have personally seen Jimmy Greaves or you're only looking at reputation? (I'm joking.)

I would have answered Greaves, too. I've always had a preference to ancient football in general; moreover, Greaves made part of a World Cup winning team, had very good skills for a striker and had a great goal average during his career. He also briefly played in Italy and scored almost a goal per game; this has always impressed me, because there a few British footballers that played in Italy, most of them with little success. (He had a falling out with the team at Milan, but he had demonstrated to have the quality to be a top player even in Italy.)
I have watched countless tapes. I come from a real football familly. Black and white film..you name is..my great grandfather played for huddersfield and newcastle in the the 1900's.

Jimmy greaves was world class..he was unlucky in 1966 with the situation that occured with his injury and geoff hurst

Also one of the funniest peope ever

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post #99 of 106 (permalink) Old February 18th, 2017, 04:25
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Comparing players of different eras is always questionable. What I look for is the legacy certain players created. Scirea with his class helped foster a young Nesta to model his game after. That Nesta lead to Bonucci to an extent and now the young boy Romagnoli. Who did the Bergomi's, Baresi's influence? Defenders who are one dimensional in today's game, borderline obsolete playing in systems that don't even man mark anymore? Totally different game therefore, pointless to compare unless you're speaking of legacies.
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post #100 of 106 (permalink) Old February 18th, 2017, 04:28
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As for Gattuso, if he is what Italian CMs should be aspiring to I'm horrified by how many more Stefano Sturaro's we'll be pushing through the system.

He of all mids of recent time is what is being mentioned? Incredible.
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